Official announcement of the Canon EOS R1 is now expected in July

[Robert Stone]

Unless there is an R1s announced as well, I REALLY hope the R1 flops. Unless the 24mp rumors are wrong. ALL other brands were 45+mp 2 years ago, I wanted to buy an R1 so badly, but canon is letting me down. The R5 II is not a substitute.

 

[SwissFrank]

I'm wondering about what differentiates the two products?

Now that AI is becoming more and more common, it's possible that the increased specs aren't even photo-related but CPU related. And that the cooling systems aren't just for video use but also cooling a GPU. Imagine two cameras with identical specs and sensors but one has an extra $4000 worth of AI chips in it... This isn't a prediction, just a possible thing that wouldn't show up on a traditional spec sheet yet make the two cameras very different.

 

[frankchn]

Unless there is an R1s announced as well, I REALLY hope the R1 flops. Unless the 24mp rumors are wrong. ALL other brands were 45+mp 2 years ago, I wanted to buy an R1 so badly, but canon is letting me down. The R5 II is not a substitute.

Canon's flagship body has not been its highest resolution camera since the discontinuation of the 1Ds Mark III, and the gap has been pretty large at times (the 5Ds/5DsR had 50 MP while the 1DX Mark II was 20 MP).

Canon knows exactly who they are targeting with the R1 (the exact same market as with previous generation 1 series cameras: sports and PJ for the most part). Everyone clamoring for a high resolution sensor in a flagship body is not in the target market. Canon likely never expected to sell an R1 to you in the first place.

 

[neuroanatomist]

Unless there is an R1s announced as well, I REALLY hope the R1 flops. Unless the 24mp rumors are wrong. ALL other brands were 45+mp 2 years ago, I wanted to buy an R1 so badly, but canon is letting me down. The R5 II is not a substitute.

Well spoken. At least, if petulant was the tone you were trying to achieve.

“If you don’t give me what I want I hope you fall and you get a crack in your butt.”

Meanwhile, it’s good to know that ALL the other integrated-grip MILCs are at least 45 MP. ALL one of them.

 

[bbasiaga]

This is all very surprising and I thought for sure that Canon would have had the R1 ready to go for the 'lympics, instead they seem like they're tripping over their 'lympics. I just read over the specs of the new N Z6iii (and told eventually S a7SIV). Pretty impressive for a little body though it will be interesting to see how it performs.

Pros already have them - grand prix recently, Euro cup right now.

Some who post here seem to assume that Canon never makes mistakes. I do not agree with that assertion.

Great thread!

I think the larger disagreement is over what is a mistake, and what is a market-data driven choice. Many here seem to think their personal desires, ultra-niche use case, or youtube centric view of photography is the clear, obvious, unilateral truth of the reality of the market. Mostly, they are wrong. Its fine to want what you want, but to assign yourself to a higher level of knowledge about product development choices than an decades long industry leading company is....overly self confident.

Unless there is an R1s announced as well, I REALLY hope the R1 flops. Unless the 24mp rumors are wrong. ALL other brands were 45+mp 2 years ago, I wanted to buy an R1 so badly, but canon is letting me down. The R5 II is not a substitute.

Here is an example of what I was talking about above!

 

[neuroanatomist]

So, as an R5 user, I'm concerned that segmentation needs may make the R5II's "improvements" insufficiently beneficial to me to induce me to upgrade.

Your concern is valid, but it’s not segmentation needs as much as just the norm. Historically, incremental updates within a line have been just that…incremental. Most lines are upgraded every 3-4 years, and the useful life of a camera exceeds that. Logically, the target market for a given upgrade is not primarily owners of the immediate prior model. Thus, the target market for the R5II will be owners of 5-series DSLRs, and of the original R and 6-series DSLRs and MILCs looking to step up.

 

[Daniel Lindblom]

Here, Calumet writes that the R1 will have 30 megapixel. Maybe a typo. (In German, please scroll down a bit).
https://www.calumetphoto.de/magazin...ign=launch_cw24_canon-eos-r1_all_cal_20240613

 

[Karm]

Canon's flagship body has not been its highest resolution camera since the discontinuation of the 1Ds Mark III, and the gap has been pretty large at times (the 5Ds/5DsR had 50 MP while the 1DX Mark II was 20 MP).

Canon knows exactly who they are targeting with the R1 (the exact same market as with previous generation 1 series cameras: sports and PJ for the most part). Everyone clamoring for a high resolution sensor in a flagship body is not in the target market. Canon likely never expected to sell an R1 to you in the first place.

The part that confuses me about that is that all other manufacturers' flagships have significantly higher megapixel sensors. Surely their target audience there is at least partially the same, is it not?

I guess I'm not the target audience, but I'd almost certainly buy one if it was in the 30-45 MPx range. At 24MPx, I'll have to think twice about it.

 

[neuroanatomist]

The part that confuses me about that is that all other manufacturers' flagships have significantly higher megapixel sensors. Surely their target audience there is at least partially the same, is it not?

If you’re a small mammal that likes eating bamboo and the 800-lb gorilla is sitting amongst the stalks, do you try and take his bamboo? Or do you find something else to eat?

 

[frankchn]

The part that confuses me about that is that all other manufacturers' flagships have significantly higher megapixel sensors. Surely their target audience there is at least partially the same, is it not?

I guess I'm not the target audience, but I'd almost certainly buy one if it was in the 30-45 MPx range. At 24MPx, I'll have to think twice about it.

I consider Sony to have two flagships (i.e. cameras at the $5k to 7k price point), the A1 and the A9III. It looks like the R1 (and R3 for the matter) is firmly on the A9III side of the market.

I don't disagree that a "pretty fast, high resolution" camera may well address a larger market than a "ultimate speed at moderate resolution" camera, but that is a question for product planners who have access to a lot more data than I do.

 

[Karm]

If you’re a small mammal that likes eating bamboo and the 800-lb gorilla is sitting amongst the stalks, do you try and take his bamboo? Or do you find something else to eat?

I'm not sure I fully follow. What's the gorilla in your analogy? Do you mean "if you don't like Canon's offerings, try those other manufacturers", or do you mean "if Canon can't beat them in those areas, let them focus at the areas they're best at"? Or the other way around (Canon being the gorilla)? I wouldn't really have thought of the likes of Nikon and Sony as being small mammals.

I'm just curious why Canon as a company is not targeting the market that the other manufacturers seem to be targeting with their flagships. To me, what the other manufacturers are doing shows that there's a market there.

 

[becceric]

The part that confuses me about that is that all other manufacturers' flagships have significantly higher megapixel sensors. Surely their target audience there is at least partially the same, is it not?

I guess I'm not the target audience, but I'd almost certainly buy one if it was in the 30-45 MPx range. At 24MPx, I'll have to think twice about it.

The part that confuses me about that is that all other manufacturers' flagships have significantly higher megapixel sensors. Surely their target audience there is at least partially the same, is it not?

I guess I'm not the target audience, but I'd almost certainly buy one if it was in the 30-45 MPx range. At 24MPx, I'll have to think twice about it.

I copied a portion of their German details and got this iPad translation:

"A 30 megapixel stacked CMOS sensor with dual gain. However, the last word has not yet been spoken here. While there is currently talk of 30 megapixels, there were previously rumors about an impressive 100 megapixels. We remain curious to see what resolution the EOS R1 will ultimately offer."

That's a pretty wordy qualification.

 

[Karm]

I copied a portion of their German details and got this iPad translation:

"A 30 megapixel stacked CMOS sensor with dual gain. However, the last word has not yet been spoken here. While there is currently talk of 30 megapixels, there were previously rumors about an impressive 100 megapixels. We remain curious to see what resolution the EOS R1 will ultimately offer."

That's a pretty wordy qualification.

Unfortunately, it seems to me that's based on the supposedly incorrect specs that Adorama leaked/posted a month ago. Which was retracted and seems to not be accurate. Canonrumors has been pretty confident in their 24MPx number much more recently.
I'd much rather believe it, but I'm not going to get my hopes up. 30-45MPx would be perfect, 96MPx with lossless 2x2 binning down to 24MPx would be quite amazing, but I don't really expect to see anything like that.

 

[neuroanatomist]

I'm not sure I fully follow. What's the gorilla in your analogy? Do you mean "if you don't like Canon's offerings, try those other manufacturers", or do you mean "if Canon can't beat them in those areas, let them focus at the areas they're best at"? Or the other way around (Canon being the gorilla)? I wouldn't really have thought of the likes of Nikon and Sony as being small mammals.

I'm just curious why Canon as a company is not targeting the market that the other manufacturers seem to be targeting with their flagships. To me, what the other manufacturers are doing shows that there's a market there.

Canon has nearly 50% market share, more than Sony, Nikon and Fuji combined. Who do you think is the 800-lb gorilla in the analogy? The tail doesn't wag the dog. It's Sony and Nikon who are targeting the smaller market segments that Canon is ignoring.

Sony led the MILC market for a while. They entered that market because they couldn't compete with Canon and Nikon in the DSLR space. Sony shifted their focus to full frame MILCs the same year that Canon launched the EOS M line. If you think that's coincidence, there's a nice bridge in New York you might like to purchase. The M line went on to become the best selling MILC line, at its peak about 17% of all ILCs sold globally were M cameras. In 2018, when Canon launched their first FF MILC, DSLRs still outsold MILCs. That only reversed after Canon fully committed to mirrorless. Another coincidence? Perhaps you're prefer some prime Kansas swampland to that New York bridge. I expect Sony will keep making high MP cameras, as will Nikon...and both will be glad that Canon doesn't. Until they do. The question you should be asking is where Sony will go next. Remember the Vaio?

 

[David - Sydney]

The part that confuses me about that is that all other manufacturers' flagships have significantly higher megapixel sensors. Surely their target audience there is at least partially the same, is it not?

I guess I'm not the target audience, but I'd almost certainly buy one if it was in the 30-45 MPx range. At 24MPx, I'll have to think twice about it.

"Flagship" is a weird term in general... Is it the most expensive body? Is it the fastest FPS? Is it the most mp? Is it the most rugged? Does it have to have a ergonomic grip built-in?
The A1/Z9 certainly changed what a lot of people called a flagship but I don't think that it really matters anymore.
The A9iii does different stuff to the A1 and the R1 will do different stuff than the R5ii
Canon had 2 x 1D bodies before they were combined into the 1DX

 

[Karm]

Canon has nearly 50% market share, more than Sony, Nikon and Fuji combined. Who do you think is the 800-lb gorilla in the analogy? The tail doesn't wag the dog. It's Sony and Nikon who are targeting the smaller market segments that Canon is ignoring.

Sony led the MILC market for a while. They entered that market because they couldn't compete with Canon and Nikon in the DSLR space. Sony shifted their focus to full frame MILCs the same year that Canon launched the EOS M line. If you think that's coincidence, there's a nice bridge in New York you might like to purchase. The M line went on to become the best selling MILC line, at its peak about 17% of all ILCs sold globally were M cameras. In 2018, when Canon launched their first FF MILC, DSLRs still outsold MILCs. That only reversed after Canon fully committed to mirrorless. Another coincidence? Perhaps you're prefer some prime Kansas swampland to that New York bridge. I expect Sony will keep making high MP cameras, as will Nikon...and both will be glad that Canon doesn't. Until they do. The question you should be asking is where Sony will go next. Remember the Vaio?

Makes sense. Thanks for clarifying. With Sony being more than half the size of Canon, I figured calling them a small mammal would be pushing it a bit, so I wasn't entirely sure if that's what you meant initially.

Part of the question still stands though: why would Canon be ignoring those markets. Especially with the R3 already being a 24MPx sports-oriented camera with a unique feature (eye control AF), it just surprises me that they'd slot the R1 into the exact same slot resolution-wise. That just makes the R3 a "lesser R1" in every way, with no specific niche like having a higher resolution or anything like that.

 

[David - Sydney]

If the new agencies and CPS get first dibs then I assume that they are buying from Canon direct so the 30:1 ratio from the retailers makes sense but it wouldn't be the overall ratio of sales.
The initial ratio would certainly be skewed in any case.
And it should be noted that CPS means very different things in different countries.

 

[David - Sydney]

Some who post here seem to assume that Canon never makes mistakes. I do not agree with that assertion.

Canon definitely makes mistakes... all corporates do from time to time but they should have much greater information to work from than we do

Canon marketing/engineering were certainly surprised when the punters hated not being able to record unlimited 8K30 raw on the R5 when nothing else could do anything like it at the time (and even now!). Haters gonner hate. That said, the quickly rushed out firmware updates meant that Canon listened (and hopefully learned from)

 

[neuroanatomist]

Part of the question still stands though: why would Canon be ignoring those markets. Especially with the R3 already being a 24MPx sports-oriented camera with a unique feature (eye control AF), it just surprises me that they'd slot the R1 into the exact same slot resolution-wise. That just makes the R3 a "lesser R1" in every way, with no specific niche like having a higher resolution or anything like that.

Honestly, I’m surprised as well. I was expecting 30-36 MP or so.

But Canon has ample data on what sells and what doesn’t, direct lines of communication with the pros who are the target market for the R1, data from other sources (e.g., paid market research), etc. Meanwhile, we have…our personal opinions.

It seems reasonable to believe that Canon knows what features will yield the best R1 sales. Conversely, it seems unreasonable to believe that anyone on this forum knows more about making and selling cameras than the company that has led the market for two decades and continued to dominate it even through the plummet in camera sales and the transition to mirrorless.

 

[HarryFilm]

No quantum computing? Seems weak.

It's the best i got this week you will have to wait til next week for more of my B.S. on making your very own Stargate transport device!

I'm still refining and converting my Verbal Bilge Pump Emitter into a more convenient form factor suitable for Text Message Bilge Pump emissions... Wait till next week!