Canon lays out their corporate strategy

[entoman]

Your R5 shutter is rated at 500,000 actuations. That's an awfully large number of butterflies before it needs replacing.

I don't have any concerns about the shutter life of my R5! ... even if I keep it 10 years, I'm sure it will still work fine. It varies from year to year, but I took about 20K shots last year and expect to be around the same level in 2023. Incidentally, I don't just photograph butterflies - I tackle all wildlife from aphids to elephants, also birds, fungi, flowers, lichens and just about anything else in the natural world. I also do a fair bit of landscape photography.

Getting back to shutter life expectancy, I've never been clear (and neither have the manufacturers, AFAIK) about what constitutes an "actuation".

With mechanical, the shutter is open for viewing, then closes, then opens for the exposure, closes again to end the exposure, and then reopens for viewing - so does that count as 4 actuations, or 2, or one?

And what about EFCS, where the shutter just closes to end the exposure, and then opens again for viewing?

If a shutter lasts for 500,000 actuations with mechanical shutter, presumably it will last for 1,000,000 actuations with EFCS?

 

[Jonathan Thill]

Unless RF system was designed for diminished build quality and durability then the 5 years warranty is more a marketing tool than anything else.

Are Canon AU prices higher than US? There is a cost associated with extended warranties.

The longer warranties appear to be a result of changes to consumer protection laws in Australia that came into effect in 2019.

 

[Jonathan Thill]

Cameras are usually either dead-on-arrival or they last forever, so the value of long warranties is debatable. The only item likely to wear out and fail is the shutter, and most cameras these days have a minimum (mechanical) shutter life expectancy of at least 100,000 actuations. That's 33,333 and a bit actuations per year over 3 years, or 20,000 actuations over 5 years. So if you shoot a bucketload of high speed bursts every day, and you use mechanical shutter, a long warranty might have some value. Otherwise, probably not.

Shutters wear out? Wow who would have guessed

Anyway, the longer warranty appears to be the result of changes to consumer protection laws and not really a direct marketing scheme on Canon's part.

My point is not to debate the usefulness of warranties. I was simply pointing out that in order to fully weigh the cost of an item in relation to another item all the differences should be considered.

In the case of RF glass in Australia there is another factor that plays into the calculation. What that is worth to YOU only YOU can answer.

Cheers

 

[Profit007]

Guy's, its fairly obvious why this forum is dominated by hobbyists. Some pros post here, but sadly, it seems a very low percentage. If you shoot birds rather than catch fish, power to you. What a great and fun way to relax. If you shoot landscapes, or your kids & friends, that's completely awesome. It shows you love these things enough to want to showcase the beauty in them.

The conversations and equipment expectations are quite different however, when you're dropping $100k on gear, and looking for strategic advantages in your market place. Nobody has commented on the A$4k Sony a7Siii out performing everything up to the A$23k C500II, I talked about. In terms of IQ it may even out perform that? Maybe not, no idea, at that point it's irrelevant.

Instead you're bagging out Sony grip??? How amature can we get? Buy a battery grip or comfortable base/cage accessories if the small body size is an issue. As I said, different conversations.

Also, my Kodak reference wasn't to say Canon is about to go under. Hello, I'd just mentioned their US$1B profit. My point is their corporate profit strategy is to protect their high end video cameras and cripple everything below those video wise, to one degree or another. Sony doesn't do this to anything like the same degree.

Who's claiming this isn't true?

-----------------------------------------------

To be honest, partly due to my historical love for Canon, we're late to the ship jumping party. Other studios and even solo shooters are already producing the fabulous mixed media we could have been for the last several years. Current Canon hybrid video is amazing compared to the 5DII, but Canon have been left in the dust by Sony regarding hybrid video, and while ultimately skills matter more than hardware, why wouldn't you give your crew the best tools at even the same costs, never mind less money?

I held on while Canon arrived late at the digital vs film body revolution. Yes, they lead early with impressive 2-3mp press adaptations, but then they dropped the ball for a while, before arriving late and then slowly out manouvering Nikon. Maybe they would do the same with video?

This was intended as a discussion around Canon's public & private business strategy (not some flouncy departure saga post). And a thank you to those who pointed out the pricing similarity of Sony & Canon pro glass in EU & USA. That was on topic and I appreciated it. Regarding the AU 5 year warranty. It is a sweet thing, I'll miss it. However, for the price differences in glass, I presume it will be more than cancelled out, at least for the glass. Maybe not? Time will tell.

 

[Jonathan Thill]

Also, my Kodak reference wasn't to say Canon is about to go under. Hello, I'd just mentioned their US$1B profit. My point is their corporate profit strategy is to protect their high end video cameras and cripple everything below those video wise, to one degree or another. Sony doesn't do this to anything like the same degree.

Beta Max, MINI DISC.... The list of crap that Sony has pulled over the years is staggering. They are not more open because they want to be, they are more open in an attempt to gain market share.

How is Canon protecting their HIGH end video line when shipping a $1500 USD camera that shoots 4K 60FPS FF video??? Repeating something you read that is WRONG does not make it right no matter how much you want that to be true.

Canon is first and foremost a camera company, Sony on the other hand is an electronics company that just so happens to own a Camera division. If the smartphone continues the negative impact it has had on the MIL\ILC industry I would bet Sony blinks first.

Cheers

 

[neuroanatomist]

Sony on the other hand is an electronics company that just so happens to own a Camera division.

Since financial reporting is germane here, it’s worth noting that Sony plays an ongoing shell game with that camera department, moving it from one division to another and merging its revenue with that of various other product lines. In other large companies, that’s a tactic used when a project/department is someone’s favorite and they’re keeping it alive by masking its poor performance with that sort of shell game, though I don’t know if that’s the case here.

 

[Profit007]

Since financial reporting is germane here, it’s worth noting that Sony plays an ongoing shell game with that camera department, moving it from one division to another and merging its revenue with that of various other product lines. In other large companies, that’s a tactic used when a project/department is someone’s favorite and they’re keeping it alive by masking its poor performance with that sort of shell game, though I don’t know if that’s the case here.

Interesting. Sony's global vision blab is all about creating and enabling entertainment, video content, and experiences for people, so this division fits their stated big vision, while I'd also noticed their actual imaging financials are merged.

In their favor they have a giant sensor R&D division funded by their camera phone sensor production. Meanwhile, Canon have a more expertise designing and manufacturing lenses. Which is more important, the sensor or the lens?! It's possible that in my life time, Sony will always have better sensors, and Canon will always have more extreme lenses.

 

[David - Sydney]

The longer warranties appear to be a result of changes to consumer protection laws in Australia that came into effect in 2019.

I'm not so sure about that. Not all camera suppliers have the same warranty and 5 years is definitely unusual in the market.

Yes, the consumer protection laws give protection for reasonable expectation of lifespan eg Apple moved to 2 year warranty as they were being sold under 2 year telco agreements which was inconsistent with their 1 year warranty policy at the time. How the reasonable lifespan is calculated is debatable for each industry.
Sony et al will avoid paying on any post-warranty issue unless someone engages Fair Trading etc to give some muscle when dealing with them.

Some things that could contribute to shorter lifespans are the hotshoe weakness and potentially shorter component lifespan due to Canon's decision to allow higher internal temperatures but that only affects 3 video modes and so the number of users using that heavily is likely to a smaller group overall.

Ultimately, the value to consumer and cost to the manufacturer for extended warranties depend on original design and manufacturing quality. If it is great then piece of mind for us and low cost to Canon.

 

[Profit007]

Canon is first and foremost a camera company, Sony on the other hand is an electronics company that just so happens to own a Camera division. If the smartphone continues the negative impact it has had on the MIL\ILC industry I would bet Sony blinks first.

Cheers

Actually, unless something has changed in recent years, Canon is a photo copier and printer company (some years their copier/printer division made a 60% profit margin), that also makes cameras, while Nikon is the Camera company.

This is however, part of the problem. Nikon didn't have the $$ to invest in the R&D needed at the times it mattered most. Canon did. Thanks to it's other business revenue, they could plonk vastly more into sensor R&D and build a CMOS factory, instead of being forced to buy sensors from others, forever taking Nikon down a road they didn't have a lot of control over. Once this happened, Nikon could never be the innovator again.

This is where Sony has a massive R&D $ advantage, thanks to their $B phone sensor business, and sensor foundry business (ie one of their factories makes Hassalblad's &Fujifilm's sensors). Meanwhile, Canon has also been pouring a ton of money in. In recent news: Canon is building a new CPU foundry factory, for lowish end CPUs (like cameras use), to help them never end up like Nikon. It's actually the 'side' businesses that make winning our business-of-interest possible, if a giant corporate has the motivation.

 

[Profit007]

I'm not so sure about that. Not all camera suppliers have the same warranty and 5 years is definitely unusual in the market.

Yes, the consumer protection laws give protection for reasonable expectation of lifespan eg Apple moved to 2 year warranty as they were being sold under 2 year telco agreements which was inconsistent with their 1 year warranty policy at the time. How the reasonable lifespan is calculated is debatable for each industry.
Sony et al will avoid paying on any post-warranty issue unless someone engages Fair Trading etc to give some muscle when dealing with them.

Some things that could contribute to shorter lifespans are the hotshoe weakness and potentially shorter component lifespan due to Canon's decision to allow higher internal temperatures but that only affects 3 video modes and so the number of users using that heavily is likely to a smaller group overall.

Ultimately, the value to consumer and cost to the manufacturer for extended warranties depend on original design and manufacturing quality. If it is great then piece of mind for us and low cost to Canon.

Hi David,

Great points. We've had camera main board problems in several Canon bodies over the years, along with a shutter breakage at around 2 years. I wore out the AF motor gears in my 135 f2.0 twice, back in the day. There are lots of things that can go wrong. If Oz's consumer laws were the sole cause, all other camera brands would have to offer 5 years, but they aren't.

My personal speculation is that Canon Japan is trialing 5y warranty down under, because we're a small enough market that if it proves costly, it's not very consequential.

For the rest of the world, under Australian consumer protection law, goods have to be 'fit for purpose' and have a life span that is 'reasonable' considering the product and it's price. This has been testing in court to mean that if you buy an expensive washing machine (for example), that dies in 18 months, this is less than what would be 'reasonably expected' considering the nature of the product and it's price point.

So, Yes, Sony is offering 2 years here, but if an A1 died after 25 months, and you had the money to burn in court, you might get a free replacement. 5 years however, is really something special.

 

[dolina]

Our favorite DPReview came out with an article that talks about why gear is going up in price.

Why have cameras and lenses become so expensive?

There's a perception that cameras and lenses are getting more expensive. We had a bit of a dig into the extent to which it's true, and why it's happening.

www.dpreview.com

 

[koenkooi]

Beta Max, MINI DISC.... The list of crap that Sony has pulled over the years is staggering. They are not more open because they want to be, they are more open in an attempt to gain market share.

How is Canon protecting their HIGH end video line when shipping a $1500 USD camera that shoots 4K 60FPS FF video??? Repeating something you read that is WRONG does not make it right no matter how much you want that to be true.

Canon is first and foremost a camera company, Sony on the other hand is an electronics company that just so happens to own a Camera division. If the smartphone continues the negative impact it has had on the MIL\ILC industry I would bet Sony blinks first.

Just look at what happened with the Vaio division!

 

[dolina]

Just look at what happened with the Vaio division!

Don't forget 2K blu-ray or Playstation

 

[koenkooi]

Don't forget 2K blu-ray or Playstation

Nah, but I do still hold a grudge for Sony installing rootkits on your computer if you wanted to listen to their CDs. Imagine if they did that in 2023!

 

[dolina]

Nah, but I do still hold a grudge for Sony installing rootkits on your computer if you wanted to listen to their CDs. Imagine if they did that in 2023!

Thankfully I stopped buying CDs prior to 2005.

 

[cayenne]

Thankfully I stopped buying CDs prior to 2005.

Not me....I'm trying more and more to buy music that I care about on CD....and same for video on BluRay, etc.

You cannot count on your favorite tune or movie forever being available on streaming.
I was looking for an album I liked from years back...The Doors In Concert.

Nowhere to be found on Spotify or Amazon music. I gotta find the CD and rip it to put on my phone/watch so I can listen to it while outdoors exercising.

And with video...you're already seeing companies like Disney (ick) altering and censoring movies and shows with todays moving standards.

 

[neuroanatomist]

And with video...you're already seeing companies like Disney (ick) altering and censoring movies and shows with todays moving standards.

#hanshotfirst

 

[photographer]

Beta Max, MINI DISC.... The list of crap that Sony has pulled over the years is staggering. They are not more open because they want to be, they are more open in an attempt to gain market share.

How is Canon protecting their HIGH end video line when shipping a $1500 USD camera that shoots 4K 60FPS FF video??? Repeating something you read that is WRONG does not make it right no matter how much you want that to be true.

Canon is first and foremost a camera company, Sony on the other hand is an electronics company that just so happens to own a Camera division. If the smartphone continues the negative impact it has had on the MIL\ILC industry I would bet Sony blinks first.

Cheers

What was wrong with betamax? Technically nothing, so maybe a lesson for Canon in the policy of opening the RF bayonet to third parties.

 

[photographer]

Based on CIPA the difference between 2012 vs 2022 ILC worldwide shipping numbers is -14,230,320. Odds are greater than 80% of those ILC bodies are consumer.

Yes, but sales in 2012 were a peak, not an average year of the decade. And I can't judge what margin Canon had on the lens or body in 2012 and what it is today.

 

[photographer]

Interesting thoughts but the idea of ‘of course, all cameras will be hybrid’ i think is wrong. There is definitely a need for the cine that has no photo capabilities. They have to compute the red, Arri and Sony. R5c and c70 is a great start but a refresh of the c line is needed.

Not just the c line. I would also welcome improved camcorders.