Canon USA Inc, Suing Get It Digital LLC & Others Over Grey Market Sales

[dash2k8]

Re: Canon USA Inc, Suing Get It Digital LLC & Others Over Grey Market Sales

Canon's claims are absolutely bull.

The inclusion of cheap photocopies of product operating manuals, as opposed to genuine manuals that accompany genuine Canon cameras? No, the printed items are exactly the same, down to the last word. These are not cheap, faded photocopies.

Power supplies and accessories that are counterfeit, manufactured by third parties and/or not compliant with applicable laws, regulations and certifications? No, they are official Canon products and work just fine in all the countries that I've taken them to over the years.

I've bought numerous grey market Canon products over the years and everything is absolutely identical except for the warranty coverage. The entire package from the box to the manuals to the smallest accessories cannot be differentiated in quality or function from domestic items. I love my Canon products but am utterly disgusted by such blatant false claims and now suing a seller of grey market items.

 

[MrToes]

Re: Canon USA Inc, Suing Get It Digital LLC & Others Over Grey Market Sales

Item 1;
Re-read that as a seller assigned serial number.
So what?
How is that Canon's concern?


Item 2;
Buyer beware, or, purchase an extended warrant from a reputable underwriter.
Again, how is that Canon's concern?


Item 3;
Really Canon?
Irrelevant, petty.


Item 4;
Canon does have copyrights on their manuals, the only item on the list with legs.


The gray marketers are dunderheads to leave themselves open here when genuine Canon manuals are readily available for legitimate and legal download.


Item 5;
So what?
- - -
Canon, if you want to close the gray market, eliminate price discrepancies across various worldwide market places.
Canon, stop whining when you sell cheaper in one place and enterprising individuals buy at that price for re-sale elsewhere.
Establish your wholesale prices and leave the retail market alone.
Or, retail exclusively through a corporate outlet.

Not sure where you went to law school, but you must have slept through Property. All five claims have merit in a trademark suit. The proximity to the holiday shopping season is not a surprise; I suspect this will be followed up this week with a Rule 65 motion for a temporary restraining order, immediately barring the defendants from selling Canon products related to the lawsuit.

I see this hurting Canon in the long run. For example Nikon prices are much lower than the Canon comp prices on some products (e.g. D810 vs 5Ds R). So new consumers will go with the competitors lower prices. Thus lowering market numbers for Canon in the future in terms of new lens/flash sales etc.

I see this as US retailers putting pressure on Canon USA to curb the sales lost to Gray Market lower prices. Good for the BIG guys and not so good to the small photographer trying to make profit for his small business.

 

[RickWagoner]

Re: Canon USA Inc, Suing Get It Digital LLC & Others Over Grey Market Sales

Actually on section two involving lack of warranty the court might rule against Canon on this. It is a full blown Canon product and Canon refuses to warranty it themselves either know it is sold by Canon themselves from the start. That is like a car company not warranting a car that still is in the factory warranty time period just because you bought it used, which is be deemed unlawful by the courts many years back. It is telling the court the company is not going to warranty a product just because they don't want to or because they have a deal setup which either will not fly in a judge or jury courtroom.

The inclusion of cheap photocopies of product operating manuals, as opposed to genuine manuals that accompany genuine Canon cameras. This is Bull$hit and i know a court will not stand with this at all. The Camera is still a Genuine Canon product regardless, just because it is bought outside the companies made up system does not make it fake. The court will side with the defendant if the defendant has a half decent lawyer.

Power supplies and accessories that are counterfeit, manufactured by third parties and/or not compliant with applicable laws, regulations and certifications
Also i never heard of Gray market selling a camera with third party chargers or anything instead of oem parts. I have seen third party as an add on in a package or kit added to the price of the camera. This does not violate any law, copyright, regulation, and with a charger there is no "by law" certification needed. UL is not a requirement to sell a charger for example. The only Certification needed is the camera itself from the FCC, but it is not by the one exact camera you purchase but instead of the Camera Canon sells. Only way Canon will win this is if they prove the Camera they sell overseas is actually a different Camera they sell here. That would cost more money for Canon to do so and again they would have to show two different versions on a camera and one can't pass FCC at that point...no way is this going to hold in court.

If anything this will show more "price fixing" from Canon in the court which will not be good for them. This is why you don't see companies really bring the gray market sellers to court, because it won't go well for the company and will hurt their current setup. This is big time in the Watch market, yet you never see any of the companies go after third party sellers. Companies like Rolex which if they had any legal right would easily take it to the courts but can't and in the end will end Rolex's price fixing system.


I hope the two defendants have money for lawyers, they can win on a few items listed and destroy and totally end Canons pricing system by court order!!!

 

[Mt Spokane Photography]

Re: Canon USA Inc, Suing Get It Digital LLC & Others Over Grey Market Sales

Actually on section two involving lack of warranty the court might rule against Canon on this. It is a full blown Canon product and Canon refuses to warranty it themselves either know it is sold by Canon themselves from the start. That is like a car company not warranting a car that still is in the factory warranty time period just because you bought it used, which is be deemed unlawful by the courts many years back. It is telling the court the company is not going to warranty a product just because they don't want to or because they have a deal setup which either will not fly in a judge or jury courtroom.

The inclusion of cheap photocopies of product operating manuals, as opposed to genuine manuals that accompany genuine Canon cameras. This is Bull$hit and i know a court will not stand with this at all. The Camera is still a Genuine Canon product regardless, just because it is bought outside the companies made up system does not make it fake. The court will side with the defendant if the defendant has a half decent lawyer.

Power supplies and accessories that are counterfeit, manufactured by third parties and/or not compliant with applicable laws, regulations and certifications
Also i never heard of Gray market selling a camera with third party chargers or anything instead of oem parts. I have seen third party as an add on in a package or kit added to the price of the camera. This does not violate any law, copyright, regulation, and with a charger there is no "by law" certification needed. UL is not a requirement to sell a charger for example. The only Certification needed is the camera itself from the FCC, but it is not by the one exact camera you purchase but instead of the Camera Canon sells. Only way Canon will win this is if they prove the Camera they sell overseas is actually a different Camera they sell here. That would cost more money for Canon to do so and again they would have to show two different versions on a camera and one can't pass FCC at that point...no way is this going to hold in court.

If anything this will show more "price fixing" from Canon in the court which will not be good for them. This is why you don't see companies really bring the gray market sellers to court, because it won't go well for the company and will hurt their current setup. This is big time in the Watch market, yet you never see any of the companies go after third party sellers. Companies like Rolex which if they had any legal right would easily take it to the courts but can't and in the end will end Rolex's price fixing system.


I hope the two defendants have money for lawyers, they can win on a few items listed and destroy and totally end Canons pricing system by court order!!!

Canon USA is a separate company from Canon as is Canon UK, Canon Europe, etc. They can legally warranty only cameras they sell as long as the limited warranty card supplied with the camera says this.

The reason that substitute power cables are needed is that UK, Europe, China, etc do not use the same outlets as the USA. They have to supply a different cord, and the one they supply is a cheap Chinese made one.

There is no Price fixing involved. Price Fixing is when two or more companies conspire to fix prices on the same or similar products. A company can legally set the price of its product to whatever they want, and can require its dealers to stick to a MAP, or they will potentially be removed from the authorized dealer list and cannot purchase cameras. Rolex can legally set its price to 1 billion dollars each, but would not sell many.

As for watches, I posted a summary of a lawsuit by Omega against Costco for selling gray market. Watch makers are now mostly concerned with counterfeits.

 

[unfocused]

Re: Canon USA Inc, Suing Get It Digital LLC & Others Over Grey Market Sales

...
It sounds like the gray market sales is hurting Canon. As noted, its Canon's fault for selling cameras for such a low price overseas (or high price in North America). Graymarket sellers can buy them, import them, pay ebay and paypal fees, shipping and losses from defective cameras, and still make a decent profit.
...

It won't be hurting Canon, it may be hurting Canon USA but is most definitely hurting Canon's "authorised retailers" in the USA.

What needs to happen is the end of the "authorised retailer."

The MAP essentially forces price collusion between sellers of Canon's products. Or to look at it a different way, rather than have B&H, Adorama, Amazon, etc, collude into a fixed price for Canon's products (which is illegal), they get Canon to set the price for them.

You are partially right. And certainly more right than many of those commenting on this topic.

You are right in that MAP is primarily designed to benefit the retailer, not the manufacturer. (Although its does help the manufacturer to a certain degree in that it seeks to prevent their products from being sold at a price that devalues the brand).

I don't know that I would recommend ending the "authorized retailer" system. The retailer is the primary point of contact with the end user and it certainly is in any company's best interest to try to assure the integrity and reliability of that point of contact. Given the well-documented history of grey market sellers who try to upsell customers with misleading claims, attempt bait-and-switch tactics and use high-pressure sales calls to push worthless, overpriced accessories, there is a lot to be said for having a company like Canon authorize its dealers. (Keep in mind that there would be no Helen at Adorama to help us out, if there were no authorized dealers and instead Canon and other manufacturers pursued a "wild west" approach to selling.)

It's also worth a reminder that the MAP is simply the minimum Advertised price. There is no price fixing because every retailer is free to sell the product at whatever price they choose (which they do), they are simply required not to advertise the item for sale at a price lower than the MAP.

 

[RickWagoner]

Re: Canon USA Inc, Suing Get It Digital LLC & Others Over Grey Market Sales

Actually on section two involving lack of warranty the court might rule against Canon on this. It is a full blown Canon product and Canon refuses to warranty it themselves either know it is sold by Canon themselves from the start. That is like a car company not warranting a car that still is in the factory warranty time period just because you bought it used, which is be deemed unlawful by the courts many years back. It is telling the court the company is not going to warranty a product just because they don't want to or because they have a deal setup which either will not fly in a judge or jury courtroom.

The inclusion of cheap photocopies of product operating manuals, as opposed to genuine manuals that accompany genuine Canon cameras. This is Bull$hit and i know a court will not stand with this at all. The Camera is still a Genuine Canon product regardless, just because it is bought outside the companies made up system does not make it fake. The court will side with the defendant if the defendant has a half decent lawyer.

Power supplies and accessories that are counterfeit, manufactured by third parties and/or not compliant with applicable laws, regulations and certifications
Also i never heard of Gray market selling a camera with third party chargers or anything instead of oem parts. I have seen third party as an add on in a package or kit added to the price of the camera. This does not violate any law, copyright, regulation, and with a charger there is no "by law" certification needed. UL is not a requirement to sell a charger for example. The only Certification needed is the camera itself from the FCC, but it is not by the one exact camera you purchase but instead of the Camera Canon sells. Only way Canon will win this is if they prove the Camera they sell overseas is actually a different Camera they sell here. That would cost more money for Canon to do so and again they would have to show two different versions on a camera and one can't pass FCC at that point...no way is this going to hold in court.

If anything this will show more "price fixing" from Canon in the court which will not be good for them. This is why you don't see companies really bring the gray market sellers to court, because it won't go well for the company and will hurt their current setup. This is big time in the Watch market, yet you never see any of the companies go after third party sellers. Companies like Rolex which if they had any legal right would easily take it to the courts but can't and in the end will end Rolex's price fixing system.


I hope the two defendants have money for lawyers, they can win on a few items listed and destroy and totally end Canons pricing system by court order!!!

Canon USA is a separate company from Canon as is Canon UK, Canon Europe, etc. They can legally warranty only cameras they sell as long as the limited warranty card supplied with the camera says this.

The reason that substitute power cables are needed is that UK, Europe, China, etc do not use the same outlets as the USA. They have to supply a different cord, and the one they supply is a cheap Chinese made one.

There is no Price fixing involved. Price Fixing is when two or more companies conspire to fix prices on the same or similar products. A company can legally set the price of its product to whatever they want, and can require its dealers to stick to a MAP, or they will potentially be removed from the authorized dealer list and cannot purchase cameras. Rolex can legally set its price to 1 billion dollars each, but would not sell many.

As for watches, I posted a summary of a lawsuit by Omega against Costco for selling gray market. Watch makers are now mostly concerned with counterfeits.

Very nice! thank you for your reply explaining this.

 

[takesome1]

Re: Canon USA Inc, Suing Get It Digital LLC & Others Over Grey Market Sales

I find it amazing that the Grey Market sellers find a way to side step the system. Whether they buy from foreign countries. Break kits up. Or whatever other method they use to bring the 'grey" item in. These guys are the scum at the bottom of the sales barrel. Then people wonder why they get bad service form these companies when the marketing methods they use are to look for loop holes in the system.

Yet there are those on this site that bash the mean bad Canon for their legal pricing policies and their attempts to protect their vendors and marketing. It is a sad statement.

 

[Hjalmarg1]

Re: Canon USA Inc, Suing Get It Digital LLC & Others Over Grey Market Sales

I may have missed a chance to get that 5Ds at a more reasonable price.

I'm also against MMAP, so I don't have too much sympothy for Canon in this case. I'm guessing Canon USA though must have got as lot of pressure from the big US dealers to address this issue especially since they were so effective at undercutting the price of the top selling items, not to mention the new launch of the 5Ds.

Yes as stated this all stems from Canon USA and their policy changes from years back as the Internet started to become a force in retail sales.

You can probably find gray market 5Ds on eBay. For example, 'allnewshop" is offering the 1Dx for US$3,899, which is not a bad deal, however, is roughly US$400 cheaper than from some official retailers.

 

[mycanonphotos]

Re: Canon USA Inc, Suing Get It Digital LLC & Others Over Grey Market Sales

I have purchased a 5D3, a 7D2 along with a 600EX-RT from Get it Digital. All were legit. Registered Ser#'s at Canon the same day. I think Canon is getting blow back from their big retailers on how the lower level retailers are selling "gray market". This is all marketing...that's all it is... If company's are selling counterfeit products then shame on them but for Canon to go after these on line retailers who are selling its products at a lower rate is BS...

 

[plam_1980]

Re: Canon USA Inc, Suing Get It Digital LLC & Others Over Grey Market Sales

I know that Nikon and Sony are doing the same MMAP policy stuff, but if the lower prices of the gray market Canon products have been the main reason for some people to buy it, now they may consider other brands as an option. It is not certain how much will Canon win in the long run...

 

[tomscott]

Re: Canon USA Inc, Suing Get It Digital LLC & Others Over Grey Market Sales

How much is a 1 year Canon warranty worth anyway?

Its pretty pathetic in terms of warranties in this day and age anyway which makes me more likely to go grey market. Once its out you have to pay for it anyway.

Ive been using Canon for 10 years and never once had an issue under the one year mark. They are so well built that unless you drop or damage the item its pretty slim it will have a problem. Not saying it won't have a problem but so far I haven't.

So in my mind why should I spend an extra third or in some cases twice the amount for a product that is exactly the same comes with a similar warranty? Thats the only reason in my mind to buy from a proper retail outlet.

I had one item that came with a fault I got in touch with DRev who it was bought through and they were very helpful paid to have it sent to CPS here in the UK and it was sorted came back perfect.

So much for third parties being poor options… had nothing but good experience.

My girlfriend bought a Canon 70D recently from simply electronics with a 18-135mm and 55-250mm STM and paid £634 for the body and 18-135 and £104 for the 55-250. So £739 in total. Currently in Jessops UK The 70D with 18-135mm is £939 and the 55-250mm £200 total £1139, £400 more 54% increase.

In real life if you can make those savings you would be insane to pay the extra for a 1 year warranty.

ITS INSANE!

Probably worse here in the UK.

 

[Mikehit]

Re: Canon USA Inc, Suing Get It Digital LLC & Others Over Grey Market Sales

Why are people getting so worked up? Canon are not trying to make grey market goods illegal but they are trying to stall them by (legitimately) stopping grey market suppliers putting fake serial numbers on the goods and using copyright law to stop people photocopying the manual.
If grey market goods are so legit then you have to ask why are the suppliers putting fake serial numbers on them? People doing this are running a con, so why jump on Canon's back?
And manuals are available on the internet anyway.

As for calls for Canon to abolish price differences, most of the differences nowadays are down to the cost of running a business and local taxes (any one living in US knows that the advertised price is without taxes and expect local taxes to be added. This is alien to the European advertising). Even if Canon sold all cameras to every distributor worldwide at the same price, property and manpower prices in Asia would mean that they could sell at a tidy profit and still undercut the running costs of a Western sales outlet.

 

[aceflibble]

Re: Canon USA Inc, Suing Get It Digital LLC & Others Over Grey Market Sales

Grey market is bad; manufacturers fixing prices is bad. Canon are absolutely in the right to sue—and should—and consumers are absolutely in the right to tell Canon to get bent and make full use of the second hand market or switch to Nikon, Sony, Fuji, or whoever else, instead. Nobody is under any obligation to play nice with anybody.

Maybe if Canon didn't enforce a mandatory 200% price hike on every lens they relaunch with IS, grey market sales wouldn't have gotten to the point they have.

 

[Ozarker]

Re: Canon USA Inc, Suing Get It Digital LLC & Others Over Grey Market Sales

...
It's also worth a reminder that the MAP is simply the minimum Advertised price. There is no price fixing because every retailer is free to sell the product at whatever price they choose (which they do), they are simply required not to advertise the item for sale at a price lower than the MAP.

It would seem that MAP flies in the face of freedom of speech.

Freedom of speech is the right to communicate one's opinions and ideas without fear of government retaliation or censorship. It is a 1st Amendment Right. The Constitution constrains government power. You can regulate what people are allowed to say in your home, however, government is constrained from telling you what you may or may not say in your home. It has nothing to do with MAP.

 

[farhad]

Re: Canon USA Inc, Suing Get It Digital LLC & Others Over Grey Market Sales

Canon rips us off and is proud of it.
You people is north america are lucky in Europe, we pay way more than you ....
I would like to know where these stuff are cheaper than the us?....as far as i know us prices are the lowest

 

[Chaitanya]

Re: Canon USA Inc, Suing Get It Digital LLC & Others Over Grey Market Sales

I realize the word "addiction" is rather harsh but, due to the fact that I'm lens addicted to Canon and that jumping ship would be
financially futile, it does not preclude me from thinking that Canon business practices, from a consumer"s perspective, shall I say, suck.

They should model their sales practices more like Honda/Sony/whoever.

But ... Canon is starting to model their practices after Sony and Nikon, in fact, both are much stricter than Canon about gray market. Nikon will not repair a gray market camera even if you pay, and will not sell parts to third party repair shops either. Sony is very strict about charging full MSRP, and clamps down hard on any gray market or discounts.

going off the topic but even in India Nikon and Sony are strict in the way service and sales are handled. Nikon charges for service of any goods that purchased online(Amazon, Snapdeal, etc..) within the warranty period. this also applies to Nikon products that were purchased in US or other countries. whereas Canon will honour that 1 year warranty on goods while servicing. also they give 2 years extra warranty for Canon goods purchased from brick and mortor shops compared to an online one.

 

[jeffa4444]

Re: Canon USA Inc, Suing Get It Digital LLC & Others Over Grey Market Sales

I thought this was quite funny. American cunsumers get a far better deal than Europeans and some of the worst companies at enforcing MMAP are Amercan companies like Apple, Microsoft, Adobe etc. who also tend to sue far more easily.
The bulk of US camera sales go through one company in NY thats far more unhealthy for competition especially in a country the size of the US.
I want my local dealer to be there so I never buy grey imports because I know I can get advice and touch & feel products before I purchase its a pain in the ass sending something back bought over the internet.

 

[rambarra]

Re: Canon USA Inc, Suing Get It Digital LLC & Others Over Grey Market Sales

I am a gray market dealer myself (not USA).

re.: fake serials
it is a common practice among some suppliers in HK to remove the original serial number stickers placed on the bottom of the cameras and replace them with fake ones. The stickers on the outside of the box are usually removed as well.
This is merely done for precautionary reasons. With a valid serial number Canon could track back the supplier(s) and take actions against them since they were not supposed or allowed to sell these items abroad. OTH the serials registered in the firmware are still there, so it is just a matter of canon willing or unwilling to take actions or not. Canon HK cutting supplies to infringing dealers? Unlikely, since that would mean a sharp drop in sales. Better leave the things go and tolerate gray market.
Useless to say that, from customer's perspective, nothing changes since the product is absolutely identical otherwise.

re.: fake battery chargers
not sure if these people of getitdigital actually took original battery chargers out and replaced them with fake ones. I think this to be unlikely. These people sell 5d cameras by the thousands... what will they do with all those chargers taken out? It just makes no sense. More likely these cameras are equipped with battery chargers intended for countries other than US. In this case in order to avoid customers' moanings you usually throw in an adapter for free and this is probably what canon is referring to.

 

[takesome1]

Re: Canon USA Inc, Suing Get It Digital LLC & Others Over Grey Market Sales

...
It's also worth a reminder that the MAP is simply the minimum Advertised price. There is no price fixing because every retailer is free to sell the product at whatever price they choose (which they do), they are simply required not to advertise the item for sale at a price lower than the MAP.

It would seem that MAP flies in the face of freedom of speech.

See what the Federal Trade Commission has to say about it.

https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/competition-guidance/guide-antitrust-laws/dealings-supply-chain/manufacturer-imposed

 

[unfocused]

Re: Canon USA Inc, Suing Get It Digital LLC & Others Over Grey Market Sales

See what the Federal Trade Commission has to say about it.

https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/competition-guidance/guide-antitrust-laws/dealings-supply-chain/manufacturer-imposed

Thanks. I always appreciate it when someone takes the time to actually find out the facts and share them.