Canon USA Inc, Suing Get It Digital LLC & Others Over Grey Market Sales

Re: Canon USA Inc, Suing Get It Digital LLC & Others Over Grey Market Sales

neuroanatomist said:
Canon Rumors said:
Lack of enforceable warranties or inferior warranty coverage

This is true only if Canon USA chooses to make it true by denying warranty service to gray market items. I wonder if they'll start doing so as part of this? I'd be a bit concerned if I'd bought gray market recently.

I had warranty service denied for a 6D bought from Big Value Inc. Wrestled with Canon support to get a resolution to cover the repair cost at a reduced rate. Interesting note, Canon did the repair but would NOT warranty their own work and clearly stated this in writing on the shipping receipt back to me.

Gray market is just that, gray... you probably got a good deal on a great product, but you might not get the same quality of service from the manufacturer... I'm not actually as upset as some others on here about it. I knew it going into it.
 
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Re: Canon USA Inc, Suing Get It Digital LLC & Others Over Grey Market Sales

I know in other retail and wholesale industries to become an authorized seller, the dealer must sign an agreement. Is it possible these authorized dealers are violating the terms of their agreement? If so then Canon has every right to sue them for damages and lost revenue. If you are not willing to abide by the agreement then dont sign it and sell chinese knockoffs at a discount.
 
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Re: Canon USA Inc, Suing Get It Digital LLC & Others Over Grey Market Sales

takesome1 said:
I find it amazing that the Grey Market sellers find a way to side step the system. Whether they buy from foreign countries. Break kits up. Or whatever other method they use to bring the 'grey" item in. These guys are the scum at the bottom of the sales barrel. Then people wonder why they get bad service form these companies when the marketing methods they use are to look for loop holes in the system.

Yet there are those on this site that bash the mean bad Canon for their legal pricing policies and their attempts to protect their vendors and marketing. It is a sad statement.

Scum? Yikes.

Poor ol' innocent international corporations being harmed by these evil people finding 'loopholes'.

I resent the fact prices are far higher here in the UK than, say, in East Asia. If someone can legally find a way to bring the same product to me for less, then good for them (and good for me). If they're buying stuff abroad, importing it (and paying relevant tax and duty) and selling it on - saving customers money whilst making a profit themselves - how is that unethical?
 
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Re: Canon USA Inc, Suing Get It Digital LLC & Others Over Grey Market Sales

Incidentally, I'm naive and lacking in understanding of such things, so can someone explain warranties?

Canon makes a camera. There's a fault or flaw in it that means it needs fixing. This is down to manufacturing error, say. If the problem is demonstrably Canon's fault, why does it matter where it was bought? Or is this something different?
 
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Re: Canon USA Inc, Suing Get It Digital LLC & Others Over Grey Market Sales

East Wind Photography said:
I know in other retail and wholesale industries to become an authorized seller, the dealer must sign an agreement. Is it possible these authorized dealers are violating the terms of their agreement? If so then Canon has every right to sue them for damages and lost revenue. If you are not willing to abide by the agreement then dont sign it and sell chinese knockoffs at a discount.

Nah. It is far more complicated than this. Each Canon subsidiary in the world has its own budgets and policies. Take Canon Hong Kong for example. For each year they have to reach sale targets. They sign up local wholesale dealers and apply to them their local hong kong price policy, which is tailored for that specific market. These wholesale dealers will eventually dump part of the inventory they bought from Canon to local hong kong brokers which again will export these volumes to other countries (like Europe or US).
Canon HK will mildly tolerate this because for them it means sales and reaching targets. They know who is doing what but when you have a customer who is monthly purchasing millions dollars in merchandise you think more than twice before sacking him. Not to mention that you can sack one and simply another will immediately take its place.

On the other side of the world Canon US or Canon EU will fight for defending their own price policies and their lucrative margins on the same items. They still have some weapons left (like for example deny the servicing on the gray market items) but their reluctancy to use these weapons might well mean something ....

After all for canon it is all business baby ... !
 
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Re: Canon USA Inc, Suing Get It Digital LLC & Others Over Grey Market Sales

Taylorpilot said:
I don't really have a problem with MAP pricing. It keeps somebody from giving away cameras at $10 profit just for the fun of it, putting all the other real businesses under. I think as a contract between two private companies, they should be able to create basic terms for selling their products. Almost all retail outlets have guidelines that they have to sale their products through. Most legit stores can't sale them for the price that the ebay stores do, and stay in business, so they suffer.

Working for a company not unlike Canon, we've had Amazon price a product so low that the other dealers (B&H, Adorama). Like $4 over dealer price, so the smaller dealers will actually lose money per unit because of shipping. Like wtf. Then they'll sell maybe 2 units while B&H will sell 1000 per month, and then when B&H decides to stop carrying it, Amazon still keeps its price low and sells almost nothing. Letting this to continue to happen is not a sustainable way to run a manufacturing and distribution business.
 
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Re: Canon USA Inc, Suing Get It Digital LLC & Others Over Grey Market Sales

rambarra said:
East Wind Photography said:
I know in other retail and wholesale industries to become an authorized seller, the dealer must sign an agreement. Is it possible these authorized dealers are violating the terms of their agreement? If so then Canon has every right to sue them for damages and lost revenue. If you are not willing to abide by the agreement then dont sign it and sell chinese knockoffs at a discount.

Nah. It is far more complicated than this. Each Canon subsidiary in the world has its own budgets and policies. Take Canon Hong Kong for example. For each year they have to reach sale targets. They sign up local wholesale dealers and apply to them their local hong kong price policy, which is tailored for that specific market. These wholesale dealers will eventually dump part of the inventory they bought from Canon to local hong kong brokers which again will export these volumes to other countries (like Europe or US).
Canon HK will mildly tolerate this because for them it means sales and reaching targets. They know who is doing what but when you have a customer who is monthly purchasing millions dollars in merchandise you think more than twice before sacking him. Not to mention that you can sack one and simply another will immediately take its place.

On the other side of the world Canon US or Canon EU will fight for defending their own price policies and their lucrative margins on the same items. They still have some weapons left (like for example deny the servicing on the gray market items) but their reluctancy to use these weapons might well mean something ....

After all for canon it is all business baby ... !

Good point.

Now how come Canon doesn't come out with a two tier pricing for servicing equipment? For example, for exactly the same service, a product bought through an authorized dealer past the warranty period is charged, say, $100. Then charge the same service $200 for something that is purchased through grey market or second hand.
 
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Re: Canon USA Inc, Suing Get It Digital LLC & Others Over Grey Market Sales

MrToes said:
Eagle Eye said:
tolusina said:
Item 1;
Re-read that as a seller assigned serial number.
So what?
How is that Canon's concern?


Item 2;
Buyer beware, or, purchase an extended warrant from a reputable underwriter.
Again, how is that Canon's concern?


Item 3;
Really Canon?
Irrelevant, petty.


Item 4;
Canon does have copyrights on their manuals, the only item on the list with legs.


The gray marketers are dunderheads to leave themselves open here when genuine Canon manuals are readily available for legitimate and legal download.


Item 5;
So what?
- - -
Canon, if you want to close the gray market, eliminate price discrepancies across various worldwide market places.
Canon, stop whining when you sell cheaper in one place and enterprising individuals buy at that price for re-sale elsewhere.
Establish your wholesale prices and leave the retail market alone.
Or, retail exclusively through a corporate outlet.

Not sure where you went to law school, but you must have slept through Property. All five claims have merit in a trademark suit. The proximity to the holiday shopping season is not a surprise; I suspect this will be followed up this week with a Rule 65 motion for a temporary restraining order, immediately barring the defendants from selling Canon products related to the lawsuit.

I see this hurting Canon in the long run. For example Nikon prices are much lower than the Canon comp prices on some products (e.g. D810 vs 5Ds R). So new consumers will go with the competitors lower prices. Thus lowering market numbers for Canon in the future in terms of new lens/flash sales etc.

I see this as US retailers putting pressure on Canon USA to curb the sales lost to Gray Market lower prices. Good for the BIG guys and not so good to the small photographer trying to make profit for his small business.

The race to the bottom in pricing is not conducive to a long term business. *Shrugs*
 
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Re: Canon USA Inc, Suing Get It Digital LLC & Others Over Grey Market Sales

A couple points:

1 - One of the structural problems for Canon with this issue is that they have, technically, different companies operating in the different countries. Canon USA may hop up and down in anger at the importing of cheaper gear (due in good part today from currency movements), but they are not the same company that sold the cameras in Asia to the importers. This isn't an uncommon corporate structure for large manufacturers, for a variety of reasons, but it's a huge pain for the brand, and for control over pricing in the internet age.

2- The importers are probably making a good but not spectacular margin on their sales to the U.S. Adding legal costs to those sales may turn that business very sour - even if the importers are found to be non-infringing, etc. The calculus for Canon USA may be that spending a few hundred thousand dollars on lawyers to make the importing/undercutting unprofitable will allow them to charge much higher prices not just on those cameras that are being sold discounted, but also across the entire American market.

3- Usually when you have massive currency valuation shifts (with the Yen plummeting versus the dollar) with an export-heavy manufacturer, like Canon, they would see increased sales in a foreign market. But when importers are conducting those sales, they are eating that new-found currency arbitrage margin and they are also buying in Yen, handing Canon back it's own now-undervalued currency.

UPSHOT: To solve this Canon probably has to be less generous with its honoring of gray market good warranties, etc. That's my concern as a shooter (with a 5d3 I bought for a steal a year ago). In terms of its legal claims, I'd need to see more, but they struck me as a bit stretchy. I suspect the purpose of them isn't to win a quick victory (as though that were possible in the legal system), but to cause a long-term festering sore in the certainty of the import business model.
 
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Re: Canon USA Inc, Suing Get It Digital LLC & Others Over Grey Market Sales

Not many people standing up for Canon here. As a manufacturer that exports globally we too have suffered from grey importing of our products and the picture being painted here is very simplistic. Firstly premises & people are your biggest cost and clearly Europe & the US are higher than the Far East so cost to sell is higher, cost to service is higher, secondly import tariffs play a part as does taxes (sales tax / VAT), thirdly advertising & promotion is higher in Europe & the US than the Far East, fouthly compliances, H&S, accounting rules they are all different and all add cost so your not looking at like for like.
Our US operation is very different from our UK operation which is very different to our French, Australian & Far East offices.
Canon are making precision products in both high cost (Japan) and lower cost (Taiwan & China) countries, the R&D alone runs into many millions of dollars if people dont like their pricing buy a cheaper brand like Samsung its simple.
 
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Re: Canon USA Inc, Suing Get It Digital LLC & Others Over Grey Market Sales

MAP is also something that is CONTRACTUAL. It' has nothing to do with Free Speech. If you want to be an authorized Canon retailer, you have to sign a contract to play by their rules.

That being said, I've bought a 5D3 from GetItDigital. I called and spoke to someone there and asked about the warranty issue. He said, what I bought (Ebay) was a grey market item and offered to upgrade my purchase to the full USA warranty version for about $150 more. I took it and it registered it CPS no problem

Mikehit said:
CanonFanBoy said:
dilbert said:
unfocused said:
...
It's also worth a reminder that the MAP is simply the minimum Advertised price. There is no price fixing because every retailer is free to sell the product at whatever price they choose (which they do), they are simply required not to advertise the item for sale at a price lower than the MAP.

It would seem that MAP flies in the face of freedom of speech.

Freedom of speech is the right to communicate one's opinions and ideas without fear of government retaliation or censorship. It is a 1st Amendment Right. The Constitution constrains government power. You can regulate what people are allowed to say in your home, however, government is constrained from telling you what you may or may not say in your home. It has nothing to do with MAP.

Advertisements and commercial advertising are excluded from the First Amendment
 
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Re: Canon USA Inc, Suing Get It Digital LLC & Others Over Grey Market Sales

scyrene said:
Incidentally, I'm naive and lacking in understanding of such things, so can someone explain warranties?

Canon makes a camera. There's a fault or flaw in it that means it needs fixing. This is down to manufacturing error, say. If the problem is demonstrably Canon's fault, why does it matter where it was bought? Or is this something different?

I don't know US law, but here in Denmark it is less clear cut: as a end-user you have a 2 year warranty. The law says this is mandatory, and cannot be escaped even if you make the consumer sign a statement to the contrary.

Not so between companies. And herein lies the devil.

I don't know how Canon is setup, but imagine 'Canon Mfg' selling to 'Canon Trading JP' with zero warranty, and 'Canon Trading JP' selling to a 'Canon Trading WW' who then again sells to 'Canon USA'. Only 'Canon USA' takes on warranty towards its retail network and thereby the consumers.

Hope this helps (and is accurate).
 
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Re: Canon USA Inc, Suing Get It Digital LLC & Others Over Grey Market Sales

East Wind Photography said:
I know in other retail and wholesale industries to become an authorized seller, the dealer must sign an agreement. Is it possible these authorized dealers are violating the terms of their agreement? If so then Canon has every right to sue them for damages and lost revenue. If you are not willing to abide by the agreement then dont sign it and sell chinese knockoffs at a discount.

Don't confuse Minimum Advertised Price (MAP) with the ability to sell for whatever price you want. Canon dealers can and do sell for well below the MAP price, they just can't advertise a lower price. That's why many smart buyers negotiate a lower price for a camera, because the dealer can sell it for less if he wishes, as long as he does not advertise it. Canon price watch puts you in touch with a dealer who will cut the price below MAP for you.

I was told by a local dealer that Sony does not allow this, and dealers are supposed to show them evidence that they charged the MAP price, or lose their dealership. Canon is lenient by comparison.
 
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Re: Canon USA Inc, Suing Get It Digital LLC & Others Over Grey Market Sales

scyrene said:
Incidentally, I'm naive and lacking in understanding of such things, so can someone explain warranties?

Canon makes a camera. There's a fault or flaw in it that means it needs fixing. This is down to manufacturing error, say. If the problem is demonstrably Canon's fault, why does it matter where it was bought? Or is this something different?
Depends on what country the seller of the item is in and how soon after purchase the fault(s) appeared.

In most western countries, if a product shows a fault within a short period—usually 14 days to a month, but sometimes up to six months for certain types of product in a small number of countries—either the manufacturer or seller is required to provide a replacement, pay for repairs, etc, regardless of any warranty as long as you have proof of purchase and can return to the original seller. To give a simple example, if you bought a Canon 5D in Germany and the screen died the next day, the shop will replace the unit (they'll be reimbursed by Canon) and this won't be counted against the warranty. For second hand items, the seller is typically obligated to offer a full refund.
However, if you can't provide proof of purchase, or you can't return to the original seller, this is where things get complicated. A shop obviously can't replace, repair or refund an item for you if you can't get back to the shop (or another branch, if it's a chain of shops). If you can't prove you bought the camera recently or in the place you said you did, no store is under obligation to fix anything for you. Generally, if something has gone wrong within that initial period—as I said, often 14 days—it is on the seller to sort out repairs/refunds/replacement and Canon will tell you to simply return the item to where you bought it. Problems right out of the box are not a matter for warranties.

And this is where grey market items cause problems. The seller only has to adhere to the laws of their own country, not the country of the buyer. Sellers of grey market items are often based in countries where they are under no obligation to provide or cover repairs, replacements or refunds, or the time period in which they are required to cover these things may be much shorter than the period your own country requires. They may not provide a valid receipt, calling into question any proof of purchase you may think you have. Canon may not be responsible for certain types of fault as particular parts of any electronic device may be made and installed specifically for certain regions—especially anything which connects to mains power, such as a battery or battery recharger—and using the product in a different region could be responsible for the faults, which is considered a user error and not something Canon is responsible for. Product misuse like this can be grounds for a manufacturer to refuse service or charge additional costs for repairs.

Essentially, when you buy a grey import item, you're getting in the same situation as if you bought a second hand item with the added caveat that the manufacturer can put the blame of any faults on you and the seller is too far away for you to realistically return the item. You're giving up both the full warranty and the basic consumer rights of your country, which are usually better than the rights offered in the country the seller is located in.

tl;dr: If you buy a grey import item, do it knowing that if things go wrong, you're on your own. If you can buy a second hand item in good condition within your own country, you may be better off doing that than buying a grey import. If you have any doubts, don't buy a grey import. Grey imports can be fine, but if things go wrong they go really wrong. Your call to risk it or not.
 
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Re: Canon USA Inc, Suing Get It Digital LLC & Others Over Grey Market Sales

sunnyVan said:
Now how come Canon doesn't come out with a two tier pricing for servicing equipment? For example, for exactly the same service, a product bought through an authorized dealer past the warranty period is charged, say, $100. Then charge the same service $200 for something that is purchased through grey market or second hand.

Or like Nikon ... They will not Service Gray market, even if you pay. And, a buyer has no way to determine if a product they bought on the used market is gray, so never buy Nikon from a seller who does not have the original receipt to prove its not gray.

I much prefer the Canon lenient approach.
 
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Re: Canon USA Inc, Suing Get It Digital LLC & Others Over Grey Market Sales

Mt Spokane Photography said:
sunnyVan said:
Now how come Canon doesn't come out with a two tier pricing for servicing equipment? For example, for exactly the same service, a product bought through an authorized dealer past the warranty period is charged, say, $100. Then charge the same service $200 for something that is purchased through grey market or second hand.

Or like Nikon ... They will not Service Gray market, even if you pay. And, a buyer has no way to determine if a product they bought on the used market is gray, so never buy Nikon from a seller who does not have the original receipt to prove its not gray.

I much prefer the Canon lenient approach.

Yes, from Canon customer's perspective, being lenient is good for us.

But I'm saying from a business perspective. Wouldn't it be a good thing to give customers incentive to purchase through authorized dealer by performing service at a discounted price? Then don't shut out other customers who bought through non-authorized dealer. Simply charge a bit higher. This way they can still profit from providing service. And then people who buy gray market will take calculated risk knowing they may have to pay more for service if something goes wrong.
 
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Re: Canon USA Inc, Suing Get It Digital LLC & Others Over Grey Market Sales

scyrene said:
Incidentally, I'm naive and lacking in understanding of such things, so can someone explain warranties?

Canon makes a camera. There's a fault or flaw in it that means it needs fixing. This is down to manufacturing error, say. If the problem is demonstrably Canon's fault, why does it matter where it was bought? Or is this something different?

It's different (and 'unethical' according to some fanboys) cause Canon couldn't squeeze the maximum $$$$ from your pocket through a dealer sale at a gauged price :D
 
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Re: Canon USA Inc, Suing Get It Digital LLC & Others Over Grey Market Sales

The whole issue is Canon USA trying to hold on to margins. It boils down to Canon's corporate accounting practices. Realistically, Canon should set a wholesale price for dealers and let the dealers slug it out in the
marketplace. A Canon camera or lens sold in one country should be the same as that same model sold in another country - or labeled as a separate product. In short, "authorized" is a bunch of "caca del toro".
 
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Re: Canon USA Inc, Suing Get It Digital LLC & Others Over Grey Market Sales

I've purchased a 6D and an M from BVI. And most recently I picked up a Fuji from 6th Ave. In most cases I got a camera + kit lens kit, where they separated out the lens. Everything seemed on the up and up. They might have swapped the battery on the M for a non Canon one which irked me a tiny bit, but nothing worth raising a fuss over. So for me personally I have had good luck and no issues ordering the imports off ebay. I enjoy saving the money to put towards lenses.

As for the issue at hand, unauthorized import sales, MAP prices, etc. It isn't so black and white, definitely a gray area (sorry, could resist). On one hand we the consumers want the free market to kick in and do it's job, get us the best product at the best possible price. On the other hand though, we want protection, knowing we're getting a legit product, and good service to back up that purchase, returns etc. Like any business, Canon has a product and a reputation to protect. That is why, like many companies, including my own, they form partnerships with distributors and retailers. The resellers, earn the right to sell said equipment by agreeing to certain terms, ultimately terms that are suppose to make the experience better for the end consumer. That's the theory anyway.

I think the issue we see in the US, UK, and Europe though is that the prices we're paying is just a little too much out of line. Think of the extra overhead/waste of having to scoop up product from Hong Kong and bring it to the US to sell on ebay, and they can still undercut by that price?

I think I'd like to see Canon get more competitive on their pricing and bring MAP pricing down to something a bit more competitive with the market.
 
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Re: Canon USA Inc, Suing Get It Digital LLC & Others Over Grey Market Sales

Lots of good chatter goin on about the gray market debacle within this thread....!..I remember B&H advertised their gray market Canon lenses for the same price as a MSRP lens in the group lists. I always thought WTH would I buy one of those gray market lenses for the same price of a non gray market..... I dont think they do that anymore...I also remember some of them being $5-$20 lower...anybody else remember that?.... So it was ok to buy a gray market lens for the same price as a non gray market but take your chances?....
 
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