1982chris911 said:
Security guards generally neither know nor care about the law. I have no doubt that scenario would be equally likely if this parlimentary motion passes with its original or inverted intent.
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Important: EU law to limit freedom of photography on the way
- Thread starter 1982chris911
- Start date
Security guards generally neither know nor care about the law. I have no doubt that scenario would be equally likely if this parlimentary motion passes with its original or inverted intent.
neuroanatomist said:
Well at the moment they are on lost ground if you re on public ground - however if a law limits the rights of photographers this may become quite different... In UK in 2010 it was an anti terror law that was mis(used) to harass photographers... So I would not expect them to become any kinder if a lot of modern architecture becomes protected by copyright things and owners of such rights could basically prohibit commercial photography ... suddenly everything bigger than an iPhone could be a commercial camera ... the problem is you just cannot prove that what you do is non commercial
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What's clear is that you're sensationalizing the issue and promoting FUD to further your cause. It's a common strategy when the honest facts aren't likely to generate the reaction you're seeking.
Do let us know when all those letters from lawyers start pouring into your mailbox, demanding recompense for all those copyright violations you post to Flickr and Facebook. No doubt you've received many already, from your visits to the red countries on that map (or not, because you probably obtained written authorization from the building rightholders prior to sharing your images).
Do let us know when all those letters from lawyers start pouring into your mailbox, demanding recompense for all those copyright violations you post to Flickr and Facebook. No doubt you've received many already, from your visits to the red countries on that map (or not, because you probably obtained written authorization from the building rightholders prior to sharing your images).
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Re: This story is false and part of an anti-EU campaign
Neither do you, but the basis for your arguments seems to be your personal interpretation of what commercial use is.
It’s up to the legislators and the courts, that’s why I asked for relevant jurisprudence for your interpretation.
Do you have any or not?
Do you really think lawyers costing €1,000 or more an hour will sue tourists just because they are taking pictures in public places with a dslr or people posting selfies on social media with a building in the background?
Do you use a different definition of commercial use this time?
If not, you are saying every journalist needs a model release form from everyone in a mass protest that is recognizable before printing or a sports photographer needs a model release form from every recognizable spectator in the picture.
We know that’s not the case.
So what exactly do you mean to say with this example?
1982chris911 said:
Neither do you, but the basis for your arguments seems to be your personal interpretation of what commercial use is.
It’s up to the legislators and the courts, that’s why I asked for relevant jurisprudence for your interpretation.
Do you have any or not?
1982chris911 said:
Do you really think lawyers costing €1,000 or more an hour will sue tourists just because they are taking pictures in public places with a dslr or people posting selfies on social media with a building in the background?
1982chris911 said:
Do you use a different definition of commercial use this time?
If not, you are saying every journalist needs a model release form from everyone in a mass protest that is recognizable before printing or a sports photographer needs a model release form from every recognizable spectator in the picture.
We know that’s not the case.
So what exactly do you mean to say with this example?
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Re: This story is false and part of an anti-EU campaign
Well very easy the lawyer needs to write one letter, that is copied and send to all people where a breach of copyright is found ... maybe 2 hours work ... those letters are not sent to one or two persons but to 100s or 1000s (same as the film or music industry is doing) ... thats how those things are usually done here in Germany
Commercial means either directly making money on it or indirectly using for things like ads. it is very easy and in their ToS you grant commercial use of your pictures to FB ... Secondly I know some people making very long exposure photography that is shown and sold in several galleries. Most of this involves architecture... is that commercial?100 said:
100 said:
Well very easy the lawyer needs to write one letter, that is copied and send to all people where a breach of copyright is found ... maybe 2 hours work ... those letters are not sent to one or two persons but to 100s or 1000s (same as the film or music industry is doing) ... thats how those things are usually done here in Germany
Wrong still same definition, the journalistic work which you quote is not commercial but editorial work and covered by the freedom of press that is a big difference and a completely different story ... Here the interest of the public regarding information is the main reason and not the copyright or personal rights ... That's also the reason why there are press passes etc ... if you don't believe just maybe try to get a nice big DSLR into some concert without a press pass ... good luck ;-)100 said:
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Re: This story is false and part of an anti-EU campaign
Evidently the answer is, "No."
100 said:
Evidently the answer is, "No."
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Re: This story is false and part of an anti-EU campaign
Well if don't believe me what this proposed law could bring just look at the FAQ page of the EU. http://ec.europa.eu/avservices/support/support_faq_en.cfm#94
Even the EU is not able to provide pictures of its own building as they have problems with the copyright:
"Point 2
Where can I find photos of the buildings of the European institutions on the website?
Unfortunately we have had to withdraw from our website all photos containing images of the buildings of the European institutions due to issues concerning copyrights. There is a small selection of very general photos of the Berlaymont available and these can be found on the thematic pages.
Both the European Parliament and the Council of the EU have their own photo libraries that may contain photos of their respective buildings.
Top page"
Secondly here is an open letter by the Governing body reperesenting all German Professional Photographers written by a specialized lawyer on this matter:
http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fhoesmann.eu%2Foffener-brief-der-berufsfotografen-fuer-die-panoramafreiheit%2F&hl=de&langpair=auto|en&tbb=1&ie=UTF-8
Here he also explains that uploading to Facebook can be considered commercial use:
http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fhoesmann.eu%2Feuropa-und-die-panoramafreiheit-im-urheberrecht%2F&hl=de&langpair=auto|en&tbb=1&ie=UTF-8
Third Letter by the German Journalists Association:
http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.djv.de%2Fen%2Fstartseite%2Fservice%2Fnews-kalender%2Fdetail%2Farticle%2Ffaires-urheberrecht-aber-einschraenkung-der-panoramafreiheit.html&hl=de&langpair=auto|en&tbb=1&ie=UTF-8
Fourth Letter by the Bavarian Conservative Party (Part of the ruling conservative Party in Germany):
http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.csu.de%2Fcommon%2Fcsu%2Fcontent%2Fcsu%2Fhauptnavigation%2Fpartei%2Fparteiarbeit%2Fcsunet%2F2015_PDFS%2F15-06-26_CSUnet.pdf&hl=de&langpair=auto|en&tbb=1&ie=null
Fifth: Letter to the Times in UK signed by several high ranking professionals in UK
https://twitter.com/owenblacker/status/614350072847990784
I hope that somehow you are now changing your opinion that this is not all bogus but very real indeed
neuroanatomist said:
Well if don't believe me what this proposed law could bring just look at the FAQ page of the EU. http://ec.europa.eu/avservices/support/support_faq_en.cfm#94
Even the EU is not able to provide pictures of its own building as they have problems with the copyright:
"Point 2
Where can I find photos of the buildings of the European institutions on the website?
Unfortunately we have had to withdraw from our website all photos containing images of the buildings of the European institutions due to issues concerning copyrights. There is a small selection of very general photos of the Berlaymont available and these can be found on the thematic pages.
Both the European Parliament and the Council of the EU have their own photo libraries that may contain photos of their respective buildings.
Top page"
Secondly here is an open letter by the Governing body reperesenting all German Professional Photographers written by a specialized lawyer on this matter:
http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fhoesmann.eu%2Foffener-brief-der-berufsfotografen-fuer-die-panoramafreiheit%2F&hl=de&langpair=auto|en&tbb=1&ie=UTF-8
Here he also explains that uploading to Facebook can be considered commercial use:
http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fhoesmann.eu%2Feuropa-und-die-panoramafreiheit-im-urheberrecht%2F&hl=de&langpair=auto|en&tbb=1&ie=UTF-8
Third Letter by the German Journalists Association:
http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.djv.de%2Fen%2Fstartseite%2Fservice%2Fnews-kalender%2Fdetail%2Farticle%2Ffaires-urheberrecht-aber-einschraenkung-der-panoramafreiheit.html&hl=de&langpair=auto|en&tbb=1&ie=UTF-8
Fourth Letter by the Bavarian Conservative Party (Part of the ruling conservative Party in Germany):
http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.csu.de%2Fcommon%2Fcsu%2Fcontent%2Fcsu%2Fhauptnavigation%2Fpartei%2Fparteiarbeit%2Fcsunet%2F2015_PDFS%2F15-06-26_CSUnet.pdf&hl=de&langpair=auto|en&tbb=1&ie=null
Fifth: Letter to the Times in UK signed by several high ranking professionals in UK
https://twitter.com/owenblacker/status/614350072847990784
I hope that somehow you are now changing your opinion that this is not all bogus but very real indeed
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Re: This story is false and part of an anti-EU campaign
In Germany every Website that has advertisements on it could be regard as commercial ... I am sorry but that is the law here ... When there is advertisement on sth. it is commercial... End of discussion in regard to German Law ... therefore FB, this Forum and everything else where ads are in place and where pictures of copyright protected buildings would be shown already cause problems
neuroanatomist said:
In Germany every Website that has advertisements on it could be regard as commercial ... I am sorry but that is the law here ... When there is advertisement on sth. it is commercial... End of discussion in regard to German Law ... therefore FB, this Forum and everything else where ads are in place and where pictures of copyright protected buildings would be shown already cause problems
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Re: This story is false and part of an anti-EU campaign
The opinion of a lawyer is not the decision of a court of law. The 'evidence' you link comprises opinion about what might be possible interpretations of such a law, if it passes. As I provided in an earlier example, there are many laws on the books that are not enforced in any meaningful of consistent way.
You're putting the hype in hyperbole, here.
1982chris911 said:
The opinion of a lawyer is not the decision of a court of law. The 'evidence' you link comprises opinion about what might be possible interpretations of such a law, if it passes. As I provided in an earlier example, there are many laws on the books that are not enforced in any meaningful of consistent way.
You're putting the hype in hyperbole, here.
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Re: This story is false and part of an anti-EU campaign
Technically shifting songs from a CD to your computer and then onto your iPhone is platform shifting its illegal yet who is going to take millions of people to court. The law is blantently out of date and the French are putting their heads down a hole trying to impose their will across Europe I hope the Brits vote to leave.
1982chris makes some valid points. Across the EU the law is not harmonized as it is in the US, so tourists visiting Rome may well not be aware that they cannot take pictures and technically upload them to Facebook and its almost impossible to know which ones are OK and which ones are not. The law itself is arcane anyone going to the Vatican or a publically ownd building taking "selfies" with ancient relics is likely breaking the law yet millions do every year so its un-enforceable.neuroanatomist said:
Technically shifting songs from a CD to your computer and then onto your iPhone is platform shifting its illegal yet who is going to take millions of people to court. The law is blantently out of date and the French are putting their heads down a hole trying to impose their will across Europe I hope the Brits vote to leave.
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Re: This story is false and part of an anti-EU campaign
Where I live there are well defined penalties and mandatory sentencing for possession of large amounts of drugs and restricted weapons.....
And now the fun part (true story)..... A couple bought a house which had been used as a marijuana grow-op in the basement. Professionals had come in, ripped out all the stuff from the basement... checked for mold.... and prepared it for sale.... After a couple of years living in the house they decide to do a major kitchen renovation and min the process of doing so, found a large cache of drugs, guns, and money hidden it the wall. They called the police who came and dealt with it.
By the letter of the law, they were in possession of drugs and weapons and should be sent off for mandatory jail time....sounds pretty stupid..... and that's what this photography law is.... just because a law is on the books does not mean that it will be enforced.... you have to look at the intent of a law, not the most outlandish scenario that anyone can imagine...
neuroanatomist said:
Where I live there are well defined penalties and mandatory sentencing for possession of large amounts of drugs and restricted weapons.....
And now the fun part (true story)..... A couple bought a house which had been used as a marijuana grow-op in the basement. Professionals had come in, ripped out all the stuff from the basement... checked for mold.... and prepared it for sale.... After a couple of years living in the house they decide to do a major kitchen renovation and min the process of doing so, found a large cache of drugs, guns, and money hidden it the wall. They called the police who came and dealt with it.
By the letter of the law, they were in possession of drugs and weapons and should be sent off for mandatory jail time....sounds pretty stupid..... and that's what this photography law is.... just because a law is on the books does not mean that it will be enforced.... you have to look at the intent of a law, not the most outlandish scenario that anyone can imagine...
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Re: This story is false and part of an anti-EU campaign
Lol. In Massachusetts, liquor-filled chocolates above 1% ABV can't be sold (fortunately, there's no law against bringing them in). In one city in MA (Woburn), it's illegal to hold or consume a drink while standing in a bar - you must be seated. In Alaska, it's illegal to wake a sleeping bear to take a photograph (but if you have a valid hunting license, you can shoot them in their sleep). In Vermont, it's illegal to take off your clothes in public...but as long as you disrobe on private property, it's perfectly legal to walk around nude.
Oh yeah, our laws are all harmonized.
jeffa4444 said:
Lol. In Massachusetts, liquor-filled chocolates above 1% ABV can't be sold (fortunately, there's no law against bringing them in). In one city in MA (Woburn), it's illegal to hold or consume a drink while standing in a bar - you must be seated. In Alaska, it's illegal to wake a sleeping bear to take a photograph (but if you have a valid hunting license, you can shoot them in their sleep). In Vermont, it's illegal to take off your clothes in public...but as long as you disrobe on private property, it's perfectly legal to walk around nude.
Oh yeah, our laws are all harmonized.
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Re: This story is false and part of an anti-EU campaign
I was referring to "Freedom of Panorama" which is harmonized across the US. I wrote to my MEPs and have had two replies it is indeed a case of the EU taking a simple revision and turning it on its head and unless amendments are made before the vote of 9th July then "Freedom of Panorma" will no longer exist across the EU. How they could ever enforce it is another matter but it would be a severe backwards step and kill a big part of the photographic industry as we know it for amateurs. Utter madness and another reason why I will be voting to leave the EU in the UK referendum.neuroanatomist said:jeffa4444 said:
Lol. In Massachusetts, liquor-filled chocolates above 1% ABV can't be sold (fortunately, there's no law against bringing them in). In one city in MA (Woburn), it's illegal to hold or consume a drink while standing in a bar - you must be seated. In Alaska, it's illegal to wake a sleeping bear to take a photograph (but if you have a valid hunting license, you can shoot them in their sleep). In Vermont, it's illegal to take off your clothes in public...but as long as you disrobe on private property, it's perfectly legal to walk around nude.
Oh yeah, our laws are all harmonized.
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About the possible change in EU freedom of panorama law
Exactly my opinion and the main reason why everyone ever being interested in photography at a public place in Europe should oppose this law proposal ... the simple fact is, that no one know what they could come up with ones this would go through or what might be the results if such a stupid law proposal is in place ... the danger that something negative for most photographers within the EU arises from this is far too high to simply ignore it and do nothing
LonelyBoy said:
Exactly my opinion and the main reason why everyone ever being interested in photography at a public place in Europe should oppose this law proposal ... the simple fact is, that no one know what they could come up with ones this would go through or what might be the results if such a stupid law proposal is in place ... the danger that something negative for most photographers within the EU arises from this is far too high to simply ignore it and do nothing
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Re: About the possible change in EU freedom of panorama law
So then I will ask again...can you describe the problems for 'everyone ever being interested in photography at a public place' and for 'most photographers within' France, Italy, and Greece? Those EU countries do not have a freedom of panorama law. For residents of and visitors to those countries, has the lack of freedom of panorama destroyed photography as we know it? In those countries, are street-, travel-, and architecture-photography dead?
Given that those three countries are popular international tourism destinations, are replete with renowned architecture and iconic locations, and lack freedom of panorama protections, you should be able to provide a plethora of specific examples where the 'danger of something negative' has become manifest, with deleterious consequences for individual photographers and for photography in general.
So...would you like to provide some examples (i.e. things that have happened), or will you just continue to hyperbolize about what might happen?
To be clear, I think this motion is something that should not become law. However, raising awareness of the issue by predicting doom and the end of photography as we know it is disingenuous and deceptive.
1982chris911 said:
So then I will ask again...can you describe the problems for 'everyone ever being interested in photography at a public place' and for 'most photographers within' France, Italy, and Greece? Those EU countries do not have a freedom of panorama law. For residents of and visitors to those countries, has the lack of freedom of panorama destroyed photography as we know it? In those countries, are street-, travel-, and architecture-photography dead?
Given that those three countries are popular international tourism destinations, are replete with renowned architecture and iconic locations, and lack freedom of panorama protections, you should be able to provide a plethora of specific examples where the 'danger of something negative' has become manifest, with deleterious consequences for individual photographers and for photography in general.
So...would you like to provide some examples (i.e. things that have happened), or will you just continue to hyperbolize about what might happen?
To be clear, I think this motion is something that should not become law. However, raising awareness of the issue by predicting doom and the end of photography as we know it is disingenuous and deceptive.
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Re: About the possible change in EU freedom of panorama law
The red text is not by me but the offical petition text - there is a media & question link provided there if you follow the link... Maybe they are better at answering why this wording was chosen.
neuroanatomist said:
The red text is not by me but the offical petition text - there is a media & question link provided there if you follow the link... Maybe they are better at answering why this wording was chosen.
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Re: About the possible change in EU freedom of panorama law
Yes, I'm aware of that. You stated this motion is a danger to most photographers in the EU, and I'm asking you to support that assertion with specific examples of deleterious consequences to photographers in/visiting EU countries where what you're warning against is already law. Interesting that you cannot seem to provide any such examples.
@jeffa4444 – your links also fail to provide such examples.
1982chris911 said:
Yes, I'm aware of that. You stated this motion is a danger to most photographers in the EU, and I'm asking you to support that assertion with specific examples of deleterious consequences to photographers in/visiting EU countries where what you're warning against is already law. Interesting that you cannot seem to provide any such examples.
@jeffa4444 – your links also fail to provide such examples.
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