Important: EU law to limit freedom of photography on the way

Re: About the possible change in EU freedom of panorama law

neuroanatomist said:
1982chris911 said:
The red text is not by me but the offical petition text

Yes, I'm aware of that. You stated this motion is a danger to most photographers in the EU, and I'm asking you to support that assertion with specific examples of deleterious consequences to photographers in/visiting EU countries where what you're warning against is already law. Interesting that you cannot seem to provide any such examples.


@jeffa4444 – your links also fail to provide such examples.

This is not possible bc we currently have Lex Loci Protectionis (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lex_loci_protectionis) in Europe ... therefore such case cannot exist ... It could only exist if the law is amended to be the same in whole Europe, which is exactly the aim of that law proposal ...

For an individual country this means that it could only exist within the country if all three are from that country. the photographer, the holder of rights, the subject of interest and additionally if the law already exists in that country and if it is enforced and if you would be able to gain access to the court decision in local language which due to the nature of theses cases are normally private and therefore not published ...


I think the problem is you assume we have case law in Europe which we don't have ... our law system is totally different from the anglican and US case law based system as we have codified law.
 
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Rather than go back and forth with a bunch of posts, I'm just going to put my thoughts into a single post and let it be...

Thought #1

There is relative safety from predators for a single zebra in a vast herd. The probability of falling prey to a lion or cheetah is comparatively small and might not feel like a big deal. For the zebras that do fall prey, it is a very big deal.

The "herd" breaks speed limits on the freeway every day. It's not enforced en masse. This emboldens the masses to accept comparatively low risk and break the speed limit, thinking it's not a big deal. For those of us that have been pulled over and received a speeding ticket, it's a big deal.

Thought #2

Practical enforceability changes with technology. When I lived in New Zealand, there were speed cameras employed for limit enforcement. Some were mobile, some were fixed in place. No one pulls you over -- you just get your violation and fine in the mailbox.

If municipalities wanted to enforce speed limits en masse, they could, thanks to technology. The reason they don't? It's the same as any vice tax purported to discourage the vice: if it's too successful, the revenue from fines dries up. If it's not successful enough, the revenue dries up.

Thought #3

Technology for enforcing copyrights for images will advance. In years ahead, recognition algorithms might advance to the point where images posted online, regardless of the context, will be tagged and flagged by automated technology designed to identify possible copyright infringement and notify the rights holder. Such technology can be a blessing, but it can also be a vehicle for enforcing ill-conceived laws.

France and Italy might not enforce the current copyright/photography laws, like a cop with a radar gun against the tide of traffic, but things could be very different once they trade that "cop" in for the cyber-enforcement equivalent of a speed camera.

Thought #4

Those wishing to enforce copyrights for images taken of their public structures without permission will be the initiator, not a municipality. That produces a very different dynamic. Think of patent enforcement and even patent trolling, but for photographs. If I receive (authentic!) notice from attorneys representing the owner of a prominent building in Europe, and I don't have the funds for a legal battle, I might opt to pay the fine because it will cost me less in the long run, regardless of whether or not I was within or without the law and how "commercial use" is defined.

Thought #5

If I remember correctly, there were mentions at the start of this thread of getting input from attorneys to better understand the proposed law as it is currently written. When references to attorneys' opinions/testimony on the very subject were provided, they were dismissed as just opinion. Such opinions need not be sufficient to prove an outcome in order to be relevant to demonstrating the potential outcomes. After all, it will be attorneys who argue before judges when it comes time to enforce the law. You might not agree with their opinion now, but a judge might then.

Thought #6

One might argue that, as the motion is currently written, some of the sensationalizing is unwarranted. Let's also remember that laws are often poorly written. It could very well be that this law is intended to do what the "sensationalists" purport but was just poorly written. The concerns represented by the media reports might be from interviews of the backers of the motion who communicated more clearly an intent that was poorly encoded in the motion verbiage.

Discouraging sensationalizing is one thing. Getting sidetracked in trying to prove the accuracy or inaccuracy of predictions of the practical effects of a law is quite another. Perhaps we can be less confrontational in this dialogue, eh?

Thought #7

Freedom is not protected by playing the odds of enforcement. It is protected by vigilance and guarding against the enactment of laws that expand power, even if that merely opens the unlikely possibility of it being "lawfully" enforced to the fullest. Historically, governments tend to continue to expand their power, reach and appetite for central control. Only very rarely to do governments relinquish control back to the people without bloodshed. Thus, it is imperative that those who love freedom are watchful. I would prefer not to leave my practical freedom to the whims of enforcement of a law that should never have been enacted. I'm not in favor of sensationalism, but let's also be sure not to label exploration of potential outcomes as sensationalism.

To American readers (and to those elsewhere who share the sentiments of the holiday), Happy Independence Day tomorrow! :)

PS: I normally avoid writing such long posts. For those who made it all the way through, I hope it was easy to "connect the dots thoughts." :P
 
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1982chris911 said:
Sporgon said:
Famateur said:
To American readers (and to those elsewhere who share the sentiments of the holiday), Happy Independence Day tomorrow! :)

Bah !

You'd have never got independence if Great Britain had been a member of the EU in 1776 ! ;)

shhhhhh ... don't tell them ;)

36% of the Scottish population would apparently disagree with that ;)
 
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@Famateur: thanks for posting your 7 thoughts. While agreeing with all of them, something fundamental is still
Missing with regards to the subject matter. Basically the "rights mafia and their lobbyists" along with many othet MPs who dont habe a clue what image capture abd sharing really entails and means in the digital age have managed to pull a 180 degree u-turn on the initiative of Julia Reda, MP EU parliament. https://juliareda.eu/de/ (german language).
The whole debate falls into an overall development, where the only legally permissible cameras in the public space will be CCTV/police/Big data "security" and surveillance cameras. "Private" image capturing in public will be strictly outlawed quite soon, if we let things move any further in this direction.

The proposed change to the legal framework for the entire EU would habe immense negative effects on our ability to create/capture and share images of our daily environment. Not only for amateurs but even more so for professionals. This is why for example the german pro-imagers association has mgone public with a strobg rejection of the proposed change to EU legislation. The freedom to capture anything you can see from public ground without using specific technicals means (drones, cranrs, ladders, paparazzi paraphernalia etc.) and use the resulting images or footage as you see fit is of the utmost importance to anybody creating imagery outside the confines of artificial studio setups.
http://www.photoscala.de/Artikel/Deutsche-Berufsfotografen-wenden-sich-gegen-Einschränkung-der-Panoramafreiheit
(Sorry, only available in german language).

In addition the whole notion of "architects needing copyright protection" is simply ridiculous. People who are in a position to place landmark architecture into our cities - from eigfel tower to burj el arab to petronas tower to christos temporary wrap up cr*p - are well paud for their works and any image of these works published and shared in any sort of media just serves as free advertising and further increases the - deserved or often utterly undeserved - hype and the fees those guys can demand.
 
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AvTvM said:
@Famateur: thanks for posting your 7 thoughts.

You're welcome -- glad it was useful to someone! :P

AvTvM said:
The proposed change to the legal framework for the entire EU would have immense negative effects on our ability to create/capture and share images of our daily environment.

I certainly hope it never comes to that, but hope isn't enough, is it? Good to see people getting involved, especially if the debate stays constructive.

AvTvM said:
In addition the whole notion of "architects needing copyright protection" is simply ridiculous.

It does seem silly (to me) to construct something in the public view and then try to control and license the creation and use of photographs of it. It's not like someone is building a duplicate building, then trying to pass it off as the original and of their own design. I fail to see how someone is harmed, especially monetarily, by even commercial use of images of publicly visible buildings and sculptures.

If we were talking about things NOT in public view, it would be another matter...
 
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Re: About the possible change in EU freedom of panorama law

1982chris911 said:
neuroanatomist said:
1982chris911 said:
The red text is not by me but the offical petition text

Yes, I'm aware of that. You stated this motion is a danger to most photographers in the EU, and I'm asking you to support that assertion with specific examples of deleterious consequences to photographers in/visiting EU countries where what you're warning against is already law. Interesting that you cannot seem to provide any such examples.

This is not possible ...

For an individual country this means that it could only exist within the country if all three are from that country. the photographer, the holder of rights, the subject of interest and additionally if the law already exists in that country and if it is enforced and if you would be able to gain access to the court decision in local language which due to the nature of theses cases are normally private and therefore not published ...

So, in other words despite the fact that it's extremely likely that French photographers have taken pictures of French buildings designed by French architects (and likewise in Italy and Greece), and the fact that in the age of the Internet we have instant translation and dissemination of information, you can't produce even one example of this 'danger' that will affect 'everyone ever interested in photography at a public place in Europe'. Hype and FUD.

OMG, the world will end and we'll all die a fiery death when the sun exhausts its fuel and becomes a red giant. You have been WARNED!!!!!
 
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bitm2007 said:
If the EU proposal is approved, would it apply to images that were captured prior to it coming into effect ?.

Yes. The descendants of the owners of this field, who built these haystacks, will soon be launching litigation against the descendants of Claude Monet for copyright infringement.

320px-Wheatstacks_%28End_of_Summer%29%2C_1890-91_%28190_Kb%29%3B_Oil_on_canvas%2C_60_x_100_cm_%2823_5-8_x_39_3-8_in%29%2C_The_Art_Institute_of_Chicago.jpg


Oops, is that hyperbole? ::)
 
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I'd be interested in one example of what the proposed motion/law is intended to correct. Any specific cases of the deleterious consequences of the motion not becoming law? Can someone show me one example of an architect or owner of a building that lost money because someone took a photo from public view and published it, even for commercial gain?

If there's even the possibility of enforcement of a law having the negative effects postulated in this thread and around the interwebs, but there is no argument nor evidence for why it's necessary, it seems pretty reasonable to oppose it.

Other than making money for lawyers, what is this law intended to accomplish?

One possibility: An opportunity for a technology company to create the web-crawlers and recognition algorithms to then provide a subscription service to copyright holders wanting to find instances of infringement to pursue.

Might be a good business opportunity...still doesn't seem like a good reason for the law. In fact, if successful, such a business/technology would facilitate the very consequences many are concerned about.
 
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Famateur said:
I'd be interested in one example of what the proposed motion/law is intended to correct. Any specific cases of the deleterious consequences of the motion not becoming law? Can someone show me one example of an architect or owner of a building that lost money because someone took a photo from public view and published it, even for commercial gain?

If there's even the possibility of enforcement of a law having the negative effects postulated in this thread and around the interwebs, but there is no argument nor evidence for why it's necessary, it seems pretty reasonable to oppose it.

Other than making money for lawyers, what is this law intended to accomplish?

One possibility: An opportunity for a technology company to create the web-crawlers and recognition algorithms to then provide a subscription service to copyright holders wanting to find instances of infringement to pursue.

Might be a good business opportunity...still doesn't seem like a good reason for the law. In fact, if successful, such a business/technology would facilitate the very consequences many are concerned about.

Google the Hundertwasser Entscheidung ... was about a picture taken out of a private apartment on the opposite side of the street of a building build by Hundertwasser ... it was then sold as a print... the settlement took over twenty years and 8 national courts among them the highest court of Germany and Austria involved ...
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hundertwasserentscheidung


To make things short: In the end the company that sold the print had to pay 50.000 EUR to the foundation of the artist and had to destroy all prints ... reason was that freedom of panorama does not involve pictures taken out of a private apartment ... if they would have taken it from street level they would have won the case bc. FoP would have been assumed ... that's actually what can happen if FoP is ruled out.
 
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1982chris911 said:
Famateur said:
I'd be interested in one example of what the proposed motion/law is intended to correct. Any specific cases of the deleterious consequences of the motion not becoming law? Can someone show me one example of an architect or owner of a building that lost money because someone took a photo from public view and published it, even for commercial gain?

If there's even the possibility of enforcement of a law having the negative effects postulated in this thread and around the interwebs, but there is no argument nor evidence for why it's necessary, it seems pretty reasonable to oppose it.

Other than making money for lawyers, what is this law intended to accomplish?

One possibility: An opportunity for a technology company to create the web-crawlers and recognition algorithms to then provide a subscription service to copyright holders wanting to find instances of infringement to pursue.

Might be a good business opportunity...still doesn't seem like a good reason for the law. In fact, if successful, such a business/technology would facilitate the very consequences many are concerned about.

Google the Hundertwasser Entscheidung ... was about a picture taken out of a private apartment on the opposite side of the street of a building build by Hundertwasser ... it was then sold as a print... the settlement took over twenty years and 8 national courts among them the highest court of Germany and Austria involved ...
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hundertwasserentscheidung


To make things short: In the end the company that sold the print had to pay 50.000 EUR to the foundation of the artist and had to destroy all prints ... reason was that freedom of panorama does not involve pictures taken out of a private apartment ... if they would have taken it from street level they would have won the case bc. FoP would have been assumed ... that's actually what can happen if FoP is ruled out.

Thank you for sharing! So the outcome hinged on whether the view (from which the photo was taken) was public or private (in this case, private)? Very interesting.

If I'm understanding what you're saying correctly, passing the motion, as currently written, would mean that even if that photo was taken at street level, the settlement would have been the same. If the motion passed as originally written, it would have reversed the outcome of the case, regardless of where the photo was taken. Is that right?

I'd be interested to know how the architect persuaded the courts to conclude that he lost money because someone else made money on a print. Still seems like people feeling entitled to the fruits of other people's success...
 
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Famateur said:
1982chris911 said:
Famateur said:
I'd be interested in one example of what the proposed motion/law is intended to correct. Any specific cases of the deleterious consequences of the motion not becoming law? Can someone show me one example of an architect or owner of a building that lost money because someone took a photo from public view and published it, even for commercial gain?

If there's even the possibility of enforcement of a law having the negative effects postulated in this thread and around the interwebs, but there is no argument nor evidence for why it's necessary, it seems pretty reasonable to oppose it.

Other than making money for lawyers, what is this law intended to accomplish?

One possibility: An opportunity for a technology company to create the web-crawlers and recognition algorithms to then provide a subscription service to copyright holders wanting to find instances of infringement to pursue.

Might be a good business opportunity...still doesn't seem like a good reason for the law. In fact, if successful, such a business/technology would facilitate the very consequences many are concerned about.

Google the Hundertwasser Entscheidung ... was about a picture taken out of a private apartment on the opposite side of the street of a building build by Hundertwasser ... it was then sold as a print... the settlement took over twenty years and 8 national courts among them the highest court of Germany and Austria involved ...
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hundertwasserentscheidung


To make things short: In the end the company that sold the print had to pay 50.000 EUR to the foundation of the artist and had to destroy all prints ... reason was that freedom of panorama does not involve pictures taken out of a private apartment ... if they would have taken it from street level they would have won the case bc. FoP would have been assumed ... that's actually what can happen if FoP is ruled out.

Thank you for sharing! So the outcome hinged on whether the view (from which the photo was taken) was public or private (in this case, private)? Very interesting.

True if it would been street level there would have been no case

If I'm understanding what you're saying correctly, passing the motion, as currently written, would mean that even if that photo was taken at street level, the settlement would have been the same. If the motion passed as originally written, it would have reversed the outcome of the case, regardless of where the photo was taken. Is that right?

Partly right - the picture would maybe still not fall under FoP bc. still taken from private ground. However if FoP is no longer protecting you in public space a "commercial" picture would also be an infringement if taken from the street level. The problem is also that the definition of commercial is not clear - by some definition every single picture uploaded to FB is commercial bc. you grant FB the right to use it that way (that's part of their terms of service)...

I'd be interested to know how the architect persuaded the courts to conclude that he lost money because someone else made money on a print. Still seems like people feeling entitled to the fruits of other people's success...

Well the architect was a famous artist and sold prints and postcards of that building himself (later his foundation that won the case did that after his death)...

Here is the building by the way:
http://www.mts-vienna.com/guide/vienna/what-to-visit/hundertwasserhaus/
 
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1982chris911 said:
Famateur said:
Thank you for sharing! So the outcome hinged on whether the view (from which the photo was taken) was public or private (in this case, private)? Very interesting.

True if it would been street level there would have been no case

If I'm understanding what you're saying correctly, passing the motion, as currently written, would mean that even if that photo was taken at street level, the settlement would have been the same. If the motion passed as originally written, it would have reversed the outcome of the case, regardless of where the photo was taken. Is that right?

Partly right - the picture would maybe still not fall under FoP bc. still taken from private ground. However if FoP is no longer protecting you in public space a "commercial" picture would also be an infringement if taken from the street level. The problem is also that the definition of commercial is not clear - by some definition every single picture uploaded to FB is commercial bc. you grant FB the right to use it that way (that's part of their terms of service)...

I'd be interested to know how the architect persuaded the courts to conclude that he lost money because someone else made money on a print. Still seems like people feeling entitled to the fruits of other people's success...

Well the architect was a famous artist and sold prints and postcards of that building himself (later his foundation that won the case did that after his death)...

Here is the building by the way:
http://www.mts-vienna.com/guide/vienna/what-to-visit/hundertwasserhaus/

Ah...yes. That makes it a bit trickier.

So, if you were to rewrite the motion, would it be to extend Freedom of Panorama to protect photographers from architects that would seek damages from photos taken of their work in a public place? Or would it be to more clearly define "commercial use," or both? Or something else?

If it was up to me, I'd say that if it's in public, people are free to make photographs of it and use those photographs for their own purposes, be they personal or commercial (as long as the photograph is not to represent the architecture as their own design/property or to mimic the exact composition/image sold by another photographer, be it the architect or someone else).
 
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Julia Reda, german member of the European Parliament (MEP) has put forward a motion in the parliamentary subcomittee for legal matters to harmonize different national copyright laws on a EU-wide basis along the lines if more liberal regulations like the ines in effect in Germany, Austria, UK abd other EU menber states. This motion was completely turned around via relentless wordsmithing by a few ultra-conservative MEPs who are likely influenced by the "copyrights mafia and their lobbyists". All of a sudden the subcommuttee passed a motion that would follow the most restrictive national copyright laws of countries like France and Italy where "freedom of panorama" has never been implemented or granted, although purported violations were only prosecuted in cases when very prominent buildings (eg the nightly light installation on eiffel-tower) were involved.

The current german and Austrian model of "freedom of panorama" is perfectly fine and would serve well as blueprint fir a very sensible harmonized EU-wide regulation. Anything - except individual persons - in plain public view from public ground can can be part of any sort of image (stills, moving image, paintings, drawings, ...) and the creators of works of architecture or works of art in the open public space cannot claim royalties for images that show or include these works. Neither can the artists widows, heirs or trusts of deceased artists or lawyers or any other members and racketeers of the ever mire greedy "copyright mafia".
 
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AvTvM said:
This motion was completely turned around via relentless wordsmithing...

Ugh...this happens in the USA, as well, unfortunately. A bill will be introduced and given a number, voted on and then passed to the other house of congress where it is then gutted, re-stuffed with garbage, voted on and passed back. It's maddening...

AvTvM said:
The current german and Austrian model of "freedom of panorama" is perfectly fine and would serve well as blueprint fir a very sensible harmonized EU-wide regulation. Anything - except individual persons - in plain public view from public ground can can be part of any sort of image (stills, moving image, paintings, drawings, ...) and the creators of works of architecture or works of art in the open public space cannot claim royalties for images that show or include these works...

Sounds fair to me. Being mostly unfamiliar with European politics and balance of power, is there a chance it will be brought back to Ms. Reda's original intent?
 
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Famateur said:
Sounds fair to me. Being mostly unfamiliar with European politics and balance of power, is there a chance it will be brought back to Ms. Reda's original intent?

The vote is scheduled for july 9. there are some encouraging signs/rumors that the public outcry in many EU countries by both amateur and professional image creators and more than 200.000 signatures on petition/s are having the desired effect and the plenum may not follow the subcommittees' draft. Source: Der Spiegel 2015/07/02 http://www.spiegel.de/netzwelt/netzpolitik/panoramafreiheit-eu-parlament-lehnt-foto-einschraenkungen-ab-a-1041670.html

It is very unclear however, if/when/what law exactly will be passed. Highly unlikely however that Ms Reda's original proposal and its intent - maximum freedom for image creation, capture and royalty-free usage of any image content in plain view of the public - will pass in the end. The "copyright mafia/lobby" is way to strong unfortunately.
 
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Famateur said:
1982chris911 said:
Famateur said:
Thank you for sharing! So the outcome hinged on whether the view (from which the photo was taken) was public or private (in this case, private)? Very interesting.

True if it would been street level there would have been no case

If I'm understanding what you're saying correctly, passing the motion, as currently written, would mean that even if that photo was taken at street level, the settlement would have been the same. If the motion passed as originally written, it would have reversed the outcome of the case, regardless of where the photo was taken. Is that right?

Partly right - the picture would maybe still not fall under FoP bc. still taken from private ground. However if FoP is no longer protecting you in public space a "commercial" picture would also be an infringement if taken from the street level. The problem is also that the definition of commercial is not clear - by some definition every single picture uploaded to FB is commercial bc. you grant FB the right to use it that way (that's part of their terms of service)...

I'd be interested to know how the architect persuaded the courts to conclude that he lost money because someone else made money on a print. Still seems like people feeling entitled to the fruits of other people's success...

Well the architect was a famous artist and sold prints and postcards of that building himself (later his foundation that won the case did that after his death)...

Here is the building by the way:
http://www.mts-vienna.com/guide/vienna/what-to-visit/hundertwasserhaus/

Ah...yes. That makes it a bit trickier.

So, if you were to rewrite the motion, would it be to extend Freedom of Panorama to protect photographers from architects that would seek damages from photos taken of their work in a public place? Or would it be to more clearly define "commercial use," or both? Or something else?

If it was up to me, I'd say that if it's in public, people are free to make photographs of it and use those photographs for their own purposes, be they personal or commercial (as long as the photograph is not to represent the architecture as their own design/property or to mimic the exact composition/image sold by another photographer, be it the architect or someone else).

First question:
More likely to protect photographers ... What commercial use is is addressed elsewhere too, also this might change over time (IP lawyer of the right holder probably needs to show to the court that the use is commercial in nature, than it would be a court decision)...

Second part:

Theft of Ideas is not covered by FoP ... so if you for example recreate an image (not something like the view of city what everyone could take from that point but really coping the idea and style of another artist) that could also mean copyright infringement but has nothing to do with FoP ... however it would be difficult to make up a case here, as the images would need to be nearly identical, the other thing (wrongly telling the design is yours) is also another part of copyright violation and not covered by FoP
 
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