Important: EU law to limit freedom of photography on the way

Tugela said:
They are referring to commercial uses if I understand it correctly. Unless you are planning on selling them, your selfies are safe.

Oh, if only that were true. But if you post your image to Facebook or even here on CR, there are ads and so that's commercial use. A lawyer even said so. And the OP said you'd have to pay a 100€ fine. Now I'm hearing that if you even think about posting your image to the Internet, you'll have to pay a 25€ fine.

PHOTOGRAPHY ARMAGEDDON!!!

Roll on, FUD.
 
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To put things into perspective, Belgium already has the law in place where it is forbidden to take pictures of monuments/buildings without consent. But in most cases, the copyright holders will put up a notice telling you what you are allowed to do. Take the atomium for example: http://atomium.be/AuthorsRights.aspx?lang=en

Fro their website: " There are some cases however where use of the image of the Atomium is not restricted by any rights. This is the case namely where photographs are taken by private individuals and shown on websites, social media sites, blogs for no commercial purpose."

Basic rule here is that you can take pictures, but just don't try to sell them or make a profit from them.
 
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Re: This story is false and part of an anti-EU campaign

1982chris911 said:
jeffa4444 said:
Tugela said:
1982chris911 said:
neuroanatomist said:
1982chris911 said:
Ok so in order to only make simple vacation pictures me and everyone else here should better not use a professional or semiprofessional Canon camera in any European city... Hopefully that will save the P&S camera market ... Or who explains to the nice security people and police persons who question you whether this very professional looking gear is used commercial or not ... that you are just a tourist... Well hopefully they then also ban all painters from the streets ... they could by accident paint something copyrighted and try to sell it ... Goodbye Freedom... Hello North Korea


Overreact much?

Basically, this brings the whole EU in line with France, yes? Recently at L'Arc de Triomphe, I was wandering around with a tripod-mounted 1D X and TS-E 17L, and as I walked toward the stairs leading down to the tunnel, I was approached by one of those nice (machine gun-toting) security people you mentioned. Did he accost me and demand to know why I was violating French copyright law? No...he kindly suggested I collapse my tripod before walking down the stairs, for safety reasons.

Not really an overreaction as basically the amended version says "the commercial use of photographs, video footage or other images of works which are permanently located in physical public places" means that of course paintings and drawings also need authorization ...

And the thing I am talking about with police and security forces is not today's standard but what could be the result of such laws. Remember the situation in UK due to their Antiterror laws: http://www.wirefresh.com/uk-minister-reassures-photographers-about-police-harassment/

You do realize that the term "works" refers to works of art, in other words paintings and sculptures? In this case they are referring to commercial ownership of images of such works that happen to be displayed in public spaces. That is what your molehill is all about. I think any reasonable person would agree that commercial use of such images would rest with the owner of such works, not some yahoo who happens to snap a picture of it and then wants to sell it. For example, if you took a picture of the Mona Lisa (a "work") in the Louvre (a "public space"), you would not have the right to then use that picture to promote a porn site (for example) just because you happened to be the photographer. Ownership of the image would still belong to the owner of the Mona Lisa, and you would need their permission to use it in your hypothetical porn site.

All the proposal is doing is putting into law what would otherwise be common sense.
Im a member of the British Screen Advisory Council and Ive written to all of my MEPs for clarification. This is a proposed amendment to the existing copyright law which the EU is trying to harmonize across Europe. Freedom of Panorama is mixed across Europe with the UK & Germany enshrining it for over 90 years whereas in France and Italy its not to give examples.
Four MEPs and two different views sums up the EU. Two say their is a risk, two say there is not, all however agree it will only be enforceable for commercial. The grey area revolves around Facebook and its terms that allow it to use your images for their gain (personally I feel Facebook should be legislated against this abuse of position the onus should be on them if they know you could be sued if they use your image).

However it still holds the problem that you as private person may not ever sell a picture (including prints) of cities bc. that is clearly commercial - even if the building is just minor part(e.g the skyline of London or Paris or Frankfurt) it is every modern building you would see there ...

I guess it is nearly impossible to shoot without having them in the frame... Further documentary films are another problem ? How would you film a city if need to exclude all copyrighted buildings ... even most big production films would become impossible in European cities ... where the city is just a background of the film plot ...

Another questions is what about the billions of pictures which are already out there and licensed ?
Its not true about London no rights need be sought even when filming for commercial gain.
 
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Re: This story is false and part of an anti-EU campaign

1982chris911 said:
Tugela said:
1982chris911 said:
neuroanatomist said:
1982chris911 said:
Ok so in order to only make simple vacation pictures me and everyone else here should better not use a professional or semiprofessional Canon camera in any European city... Hopefully that will save the P&S camera market ... Or who explains to the nice security people and police persons who question you whether this very professional looking gear is used commercial or not ... that you are just a tourist... Well hopefully they then also ban all painters from the streets ... they could by accident paint something copyrighted and try to sell it ... Goodbye Freedom... Hello North Korea

Overreact much?

Basically, this brings the whole EU in line with France, yes? Recently at L'Arc de Triomphe, I was wandering around with a tripod-mounted 1D X and TS-E 17L, and as I walked toward the stairs leading down to the tunnel, I was approached by one of those nice (machine gun-toting) security people you mentioned. Did he accost me and demand to know why I was violating French copyright law? No...he kindly suggested I collapse my tripod before walking down the stairs, for safety reasons.

Not really an overreaction as basically the amended version says "the commercial use of photographs, video footage or other images of works which are permanently located in physical public places" means that of course paintings and drawings also need authorization ...

And the thing I am talking about with police and security forces is not today's standard but what could be the result of such laws. Remember the situation in UK due to their Antiterror laws: http://www.wirefresh.com/uk-minister-reassures-photographers-about-police-harassment/

You do realize that the term "works" refers to works of art, in other words paintings and sculptures? In this case they are referring to commercial ownership of images of such works that happen to be displayed in public spaces. That is what your molehill is all about. I think any reasonable person would agree that commercial use of such images would rest with the owner of such works, not some yahoo who happens to snap a picture of it and then wants to sell it. For example, if you took a picture of the Mona Lisa (a "work") in the Louvre (a "public space"), you would not have the right to then use that picture to promote a porn site (for example) just because you happened to be the photographer. Ownership of the image would still belong to the owner of the Mona Lisa, and you would need their permission to use it in your hypothetical porn site.

All the proposal is doing is putting into law what would otherwise be common sense.

Sorry but you do not realize that "works" refers to all architectural works as well - meaning every building constructed in the last 70 years which is not only an engineered construction but for which an architect made a design. It also includes older building if there were substantial modifications (general length of copyright is 70 years after the death of the creator). In an architect's contract there is always a copyright paragraph, otherwise the developer/building company could just take the plans and endlessly rebuild the building without the architects permission. So your statement is 100% wrong... further FoP is in most countries limited to 3 dimensional works and not 2 dimensional things like pictures posters advertisements paintings etc ... Further the ML is in a museum where FoP does not apply ... that is also plainly wrong... Further it is completely wrong to assume just because you own a painting or other work of art you are the copyright holder as well. Even if you buy a multi million Damien Hirst artwork (enter every other artist you may want) it is never allowed to reproduce it without the permission of the artist ... ownership of copyright IS NOT the same as ownership of the subject...

I understand perfectly fine. But in English in that context the term "works" refers to works of art, not structural works. Same word, but completely different meanings. Perhaps English is not your first language and you are confused about what the phrase means?
 
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Re: This story is false and part of an anti-EU campaign

Tugela said:
1982chris911 said:
Tugela said:
1982chris911 said:
neuroanatomist said:
1982chris911 said:
Ok so in order to only make simple vacation pictures me and everyone else here should better not use a professional or semiprofessional Canon camera in any European city... Hopefully that will save the P&S camera market ... Or who explains to the nice security people and police persons who question you whether this very professional looking gear is used commercial or not ... that you are just a tourist... Well hopefully they then also ban all painters from the streets ... they could by accident paint something copyrighted and try to sell it ... Goodbye Freedom... Hello North Korea

Overreact much?

Basically, this brings the whole EU in line with France, yes? Recently at L'Arc de Triomphe, I was wandering around with a tripod-mounted 1D X and TS-E 17L, and as I walked toward the stairs leading down to the tunnel, I was approached by one of those nice (machine gun-toting) security people you mentioned. Did he accost me and demand to know why I was violating French copyright law? No...he kindly suggested I collapse my tripod before walking down the stairs, for safety reasons.

Not really an overreaction as basically the amended version says "the commercial use of photographs, video footage or other images of works which are permanently located in physical public places" means that of course paintings and drawings also need authorization ...

And the thing I am talking about with police and security forces is not today's standard but what could be the result of such laws. Remember the situation in UK due to their Antiterror laws: http://www.wirefresh.com/uk-minister-reassures-photographers-about-police-harassment/

You do realize that the term "works" refers to works of art, in other words paintings and sculptures? In this case they are referring to commercial ownership of images of such works that happen to be displayed in public spaces. That is what your molehill is all about. I think any reasonable person would agree that commercial use of such images would rest with the owner of such works, not some yahoo who happens to snap a picture of it and then wants to sell it. For example, if you took a picture of the Mona Lisa (a "work") in the Louvre (a "public space"), you would not have the right to then use that picture to promote a porn site (for example) just because you happened to be the photographer. Ownership of the image would still belong to the owner of the Mona Lisa, and you would need their permission to use it in your hypothetical porn site.

All the proposal is doing is putting into law what would otherwise be common sense.

Sorry but you do not realize that "works" refers to all architectural works as well - meaning every building constructed in the last 70 years which is not only an engineered construction but for which an architect made a design. It also includes older building if there were substantial modifications (general length of copyright is 70 years after the death of the creator). In an architect's contract there is always a copyright paragraph, otherwise the developer/building company could just take the plans and endlessly rebuild the building without the architects permission. So your statement is 100% wrong... further FoP is in most countries limited to 3 dimensional works and not 2 dimensional things like pictures posters advertisements paintings etc ... Further the ML is in a museum where FoP does not apply ... that is also plainly wrong... Further it is completely wrong to assume just because you own a painting or other work of art you are the copyright holder as well. Even if you buy a multi million Damien Hirst artwork (enter every other artist you may want) it is never allowed to reproduce it without the permission of the artist ... ownership of copyright IS NOT the same as ownership of the subject...

I understand perfectly fine. But in English in that context the term "works" refers to works of art, not structural works. Same word, but completely different meanings. Perhaps English is not your first language and you are confused about what the phrase means?

And I suppose Architecture is not an art in your book.
 
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Re: This story is false and part of an anti-EU campaign

anthonyd said:
Tugela said:
1982chris911 said:
Tugela said:
1982chris911 said:
neuroanatomist said:
1982chris911 said:
Ok so in order to only make simple vacation pictures me and everyone else here should better not use a professional or semiprofessional Canon camera in any European city... Hopefully that will save the P&S camera market ... Or who explains to the nice security people and police persons who question you whether this very professional looking gear is used commercial or not ... that you are just a tourist... Well hopefully they then also ban all painters from the streets ... they could by accident paint something copyrighted and try to sell it ... Goodbye Freedom... Hello North Korea

Overreact much?

Basically, this brings the whole EU in line with France, yes? Recently at L'Arc de Triomphe, I was wandering around with a tripod-mounted 1D X and TS-E 17L, and as I walked toward the stairs leading down to the tunnel, I was approached by one of those nice (machine gun-toting) security people you mentioned. Did he accost me and demand to know why I was violating French copyright law? No...he kindly suggested I collapse my tripod before walking down the stairs, for safety reasons.

Not really an overreaction as basically the amended version says "the commercial use of photographs, video footage or other images of works which are permanently located in physical public places" means that of course paintings and drawings also need authorization ...

And the thing I am talking about with police and security forces is not today's standard but what could be the result of such laws. Remember the situation in UK due to their Antiterror laws: http://www.wirefresh.com/uk-minister-reassures-photographers-about-police-harassment/

You do realize that the term "works" refers to works of art, in other words paintings and sculptures? In this case they are referring to commercial ownership of images of such works that happen to be displayed in public spaces. That is what your molehill is all about. I think any reasonable person would agree that commercial use of such images would rest with the owner of such works, not some yahoo who happens to snap a picture of it and then wants to sell it. For example, if you took a picture of the Mona Lisa (a "work") in the Louvre (a "public space"), you would not have the right to then use that picture to promote a porn site (for example) just because you happened to be the photographer. Ownership of the image would still belong to the owner of the Mona Lisa, and you would need their permission to use it in your hypothetical porn site.

All the proposal is doing is putting into law what would otherwise be common sense.

Sorry but you do not realize that "works" refers to all architectural works as well - meaning every building constructed in the last 70 years which is not only an engineered construction but for which an architect made a design. It also includes older building if there were substantial modifications (general length of copyright is 70 years after the death of the creator). In an architect's contract there is always a copyright paragraph, otherwise the developer/building company could just take the plans and endlessly rebuild the building without the architects permission. So your statement is 100% wrong... further FoP is in most countries limited to 3 dimensional works and not 2 dimensional things like pictures posters advertisements paintings etc ... Further the ML is in a museum where FoP does not apply ... that is also plainly wrong... Further it is completely wrong to assume just because you own a painting or other work of art you are the copyright holder as well. Even if you buy a multi million Damien Hirst artwork (enter every other artist you may want) it is never allowed to reproduce it without the permission of the artist ... ownership of copyright IS NOT the same as ownership of the subject...

I understand perfectly fine. But in English in that context the term "works" refers to works of art, not structural works. Same word, but completely different meanings. Perhaps English is not your first language and you are confused about what the phrase means?

And I suppose Architecture is not an art in your book.

Nope. A bridge is not art. There are monumental structures which are art, but those are relatively few and far between and architecture is not among them.

As I said before, this proposed amendment refers to things like paintings and sculptures which are on public display, not buildings. The OP is misrepresenting all this to make a mountain out of a molehill due to paranoia. It is also specific to commercial images, not those recorded by the general public.
 
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I'm confused. Consider this image:



The Dreiländerbrücke is a recent design, and spans the Rhine such that the left side (as pictured) is in Germany (where FOP currently exists) while the right side is in France (where there is no FOP). The concept was designed by an architect in France (no FOP), but the engineering design was done in Germany (FOP). Some of the pictured buildings are in France (no FOP), others are in Switzerland (FOP).

When I took the picture I was standing in Germany (FOP), but on private land belonging to a Chinese restaurant (China has FOP), and I had French (no FOP) wine in my belly. I first viewed the RAW image in Switzerland (FOP), and processed it in the USA (FOP for buildings, bridges have no copyright protection at all so FOP is irrelevant). I posted it to Flickr, having agreed to their ToS which allows then to use it to promote their products. It's here on CR, with inline ads nearby. Just now, I thought about offering it to stock services.

With the new law parlimantary motion and lex loci protectionis, what am I to do?

:eek:

;)
 
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neuroanatomist said:
I'm confused. Consider this image:





When I took the picture I was standing in Germany (FOP), but on private land belonging to a Chinese restaurant (China has FOP), and I had French (no FOP) wine in my belly.

what am I to do?

Well for start try taking the picture before you drink the wine. You missed both ends off the bridge ;)
 
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zim said:
I'm not trying to be an arm chair lawyer here cos I ain't! but I don't understand this. Every company I've worked for has by contract owned every bit of code and IP I've created (I see no difference between 'art' and code both look beautiful when done correctly) they owned me for those periods of time. In my mind this therefore seems like an absolute dereliction of duty and care of public funds used by the city of Vienna to fund this project i.e. the only people that should be in a position to sue is the city.

Depends on the terms of your employment. Most people, doing code as a W2 employee of a company, basically is doing that work as a "work for hire" type situation, where they own the code you create while on the job.

If you are coding and have a 1099 type contractor relationship to the company, the rights to the code are something you negotiate with the contractually as to who retains the rights to the code.

This is often the case with photography or video, etc. Are you employed or contracting as a "work for hire" where the employing entity owns the copyright, or do you retain the rights to the media, and license it out to the company paying for it.

You generally want to fight for the latter case, and rarely do you want to do work for hire as an artist.

And as someone who does some code...I also want to retain the rights to re-use much of the code I come in with, as well as the code tool box I've assembled (no pun intended) over the years.

Definitely a consideration when accepting employment.

I've done W2 work before where I had to have them rewrite or cancel out parts of the work agreement, to remove language what would have possibly had the company not only own any code I did or brought in to the company facility during the work day...but also possibly to anything I created outside of there on my own time. Stuff like that needs to be watched for....

HTH,

cayenne
 
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It seems to me that the general feeling in this forum is that this law (or whatever it is) will not have much of an effect.
let me share a counterexample with you. I'm currently in Athens Greece with my family. I tried to take pictures of my kids on the Acropolis only to learn that flashes and light modifiers are not allowed on the Acropolis. The next day I went to the hill across from the Acropolis to take pictures of my kids with a tele lens so the Parthenon in the background is recognizable. To my surprise, when I set up a large softbox a guard approached and said that flashes are not allowed there either! I'm not sure that this is due to FOP, but Greece has no FOP and the Parthenon is certainly considered a work of art in Greece (even if some members of this forum do not include architecture in the fine arts).
 
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anthonyd said:
It seems to me that the general feeling in this forum is that this law (or whatever it is) will not have much of an effect.
let me share a counterexample with you. I'm currently in Athens Greece with my family. I tried to take pictures of my kids on the Acropolis only to learn that flashes and light modifiers are not allowed on the Acropolis. The next day I went to the hill across from the Acropolis to take pictures of my kids with a tele lens so the Parthenon in the background is recognizable. To my surprise, when I set up a large softbox a guard approached and said that flashes are not allowed there either! I'm not sure that this is due to FOP, but Greece has no FOP and the Parthenon is certainly considered a work of art in Greece (even if some members of this forum do not include architecture in the fine arts).

Sorry, but I don't think that represents a counter example. The proscription of flash/strobe use has nothing to do with copyright protection, but rather with limiting distraction for everyone else and in some cases preservation of historical material. You weren't told to stop taking pictures or asked to pay 300€ to the Culture and Tourism Ministry for a professional photography permit.

Moreover, I rather suspect the architectural copyrights for the structures on the Acropolis have expired by now. ;)
 
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neuroanatomist said:
anthonyd said:
It seems to me that the general feeling in this forum is that this law (or whatever it is) will not have much of an effect.
let me share a counterexample with you. I'm currently in Athens Greece with my family. I tried to take pictures of my kids on the Acropolis only to learn that flashes and light modifiers are not allowed on the Acropolis. The next day I went to the hill across from the Acropolis to take pictures of my kids with a tele lens so the Parthenon in the background is recognizable. To my surprise, when I set up a large softbox a guard approached and said that flashes are not allowed there either! I'm not sure that this is due to FOP, but Greece has no FOP and the Parthenon is certainly considered a work of art in Greece (even if some members of this forum do not include architecture in the fine arts).

Sorry, but I don't think that represents a counter example. The proscription of flash/strobe use has nothing to do with copyright protection, but rather with limiting distraction for everyone else and in some cases preservation of historical material. You weren't told to stop taking pictures or asked to pay 300€ to the Culture and Tourism Ministry for a professional photography permit.

Moreover, I rather suspect the architectural copyrights for the structures on the Acropolis have expired by now. ;)

You might be right, but what I forgot to mention is that when I asked "what's the obsession with the flashes" the guard didn't have a very coherent answer but mumbled something about the photo shoot looking too professional and so does my lens and so on. He also came back when my wife was changing the kids' clothes and asked why we are changing clothes for the photo shoot.

My opinion is not authoritative in any way but it sounds like they want to prevent proffesional photography around the monuments.

Regarding the copyright, it obviously doesn't belong to the original artists or their descendants, but I wouldn't be surprised if the monuments are considered IP of the Greek government.
 
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I have seen several initiatives against this crazy proposal. Here is an easy way to add your voice to the opposition.

https://www.change.org/p/european-parliament-save-the-freedom-of-photography-savefop-europarl-en?recruiter=338415479&utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=copylink
 
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neuroanatomist said:
I'm confused. Consider this image:



The Dreiländerbrücke is a recent design, and spans the Rhine such that the left side (as pictured) is in Germany (where FOP currently exists) while the right side is in France (where there is no FOP). The concept was designed by an architect in France (no FOP), but the engineering design was done in Germany (FOP). Some of the pictured buildings are in France (no FOP), others are in Switzerland (FOP).

When I took the picture I was standing in Germany (FOP), but on private land belonging to a Chinese restaurant (China has FOP), and I had French (no FOP) wine in my belly. I first viewed the RAW image in Switzerland (FOP), and processed it in the USA (FOP for buildings, bridges have no copyright protection at all so FOP is irrelevant). I posted it to Flickr, having agreed to their ToS which allows then to use it to promote their products. It's here on CR, with inline ads nearby. Just now, I thought about offering it to stock services.

With the new law parlimantary motion and lex loci protectionis, what am I to do?

:eek:

;)
Unfortunately for you, you would be breaking French law and the French have an extradition treaty with the US. Given that dilbert is an alias for a US lawmaker, they will probably exchange you for Roman Polanski.
 
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Neuro, your image/situation is a perfect demonstration of the matter in question.
If you photograph a bridge in say Cincinnati spanning the Ohio river, the same laws will apply on the Ohio and on the Kentucky side of that bridge. Unfortunately this is currently not the case between EU member states. So there clearly is a need for harmonization of the current legal situation throughout the entire EU.

If the EU parliament follows the intent of Julia Reda's initial proposal to harmonize the matter along the more liberal "german model" of freedom of panorama ("FoP"), it would be ideal from any photographers point of view - both amateurs and professionals. FoP has worked extremely well over the last 90 years in all countries where it exists. And to my knowledge, (good) architects and artists are starving in higher numbers in Germany, Austria or the UK than in the most photography-restricting EU countries like France and Italy.

With a sensible and liberal European FoP law/directive in place, photographers anywhere in the EU would have peace of mind, that as long as they capture images of anything (other than individual persons) on and from public ground and in plain view of the public, they could publish and use these images as they see fit in commercial, non-commercial and "possibly commercial" situations (like those facebook, flickr etc. terms of service). Without having to stop and ask for all sorts of permissions before creating any image, without 100 page small print contracts, and without greedy asshole IR lawyers going after them with the most absurd "cease and desist orders under fine" ("strafbewehrte Abmahnungen") for all sorts of real or imagined "commercial uses" and "copyright infringements" of some long-deceased architects's heirs trust fund.

Unfortunately, some dirtbag copyright mafia-influenced MEPs have tried to turn Ms. Read's excellent proposal and initiative to grant freedom of panorama to photographers in all EU countries on its head. In effect they want to basically abolsih FoP in all of the EU, including countries where it has existed and successfully regulated matters for many decades. Not even the Nazis touched general FoP rights in Germany and Austria.

So yes, this matter is a big thing. It is not exaggerated. It is important to any photographer taking images outside of their own house, apartment or studio. It is even important to US and other Non-EU tourists taking images of and in European cities on public grounds (eg. images of multi-national bridges taken from the sidewalk of a street NEXt TO some Chinese restaurant ;) ).

As photographers we should all be united in asking EU lawmakers (EU parliament does pass laws): "Madams/Sires Ladies & Gentlemen, grant freedom of panorama - everywhere!". It is essential for photographers and it also serves the public interest. The more images of our cities, buildings, monuments the better - the more will be available as documentation of the current state of our civilization to future generations and historians. Furthermore, there are more than enough legal safeguards provided under many other laws & regulations in all EU countries to very effectively prevent and/or limit "excessive" (commercial) use and any copyright infringements by means of images captured under FoP.
 
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AvTvM said:
As photographers we should all be united in asking the eu lawmakers (the EU parliament does pass laws): "Madams/Sires, give us freedom of panorama".

"Madams" is the plural form for a brothel keeper. Mesdames is the correct plural of an archaic form of address for a woman in high position. Sire is used most often nowadays for the father of a race horse.
 
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