Is Sony going to beat Canon to the ‘Pro’ mirrorless camera punch?

[Mike9129]

Just looking in from the outside, if canon did nothing but release a mirrorless version of the 1Dx iii, I think an aweful lot of "pro's" would be happy.

Its a hell of a camera.

As for what Sony is up to? great? I guess?
It's nice to talk about other camera systems. The problem is I have glass for this one, and the glass is very nice, and the R5 now is nice to go with it.
Id imagine any "pro" would find the R5 more than useable in most situations as it is.

Same can probably be said for the A9, A7iv/iii or even the A7 iii (camera is great, viewfinder is aweful)
Also, didnt they update the A9 just last year?

 

[docsmith]

Not all designs generate the same amounts of heat, as long as the box can dissipate the amount of heat generated inside, it will not overheat. The Canon design generates a lot of heat internally, Sony has learned to reduce heat generation, a larger camera with more surface area can dissipate more, so I can conceive a much longer time to overheat as being possible at least. Remember, the Canon design is 2 years or more old, newer models will be improved.

I am was more thinking about how some have shown the A7SIII overheating faster than the R5 in 4K. Has that been debunked and I missed it? Also, I am continually impressed with how much heat is generated by modern computers. As silly as a comparison as this is, my new laptop releases its heat in the direction of where I like to keep my mouse, and it can actually get noticeably to even uncomfortably hot even doing routine tasks much less crunching data coming off an 8K sensor. So, put another way, if Sony has figured out how the heat can be dissipated faster than it is generated during 8K video processing, that will be very interesting and kudos to them. This really is not meant to be anti-Sony, I am generally impressed with what they have done. I'll be skeptical of the "8K-no overheating" statement for a body without active heat dissipation until it is actually verified or we understand the limitations for any camera manufacturer. But, this is a rumored specification of a rumored camera. Until something is released, anything is possible.

 

[Bert63]

for one main feature of PRO is that you can see the real iamge in the OVF.

According to what?

 

[ERHP]

The bigger battery(10.8V/2750mAH) in the 'Pro' body has also been able to drive the AF of the lenses faster. If both Canon and Nikon stayed at 20MP in their recent 1 series bodies and the previous 'pro' Sony body was only 24MP, you have to wonder what changed in the 'Pro' oriented marketing to make the rumormill go big?

 

[Bert63]

8K video. While maintaining pro-level weather sealing. With no overheating.

<grabs popcorn>

This is going to be interesting...

 

[jam05]

I believe Sony has the technology to pull this off but will they do it is another question. If Sony does this hope they get better LCD screen, touch capabilities on par with Canon and more ergonomic body

Sony hasn't had any technology that anybody else hasnt had. Best they've done is mostly firmware coding. Nothing new hardware wise at all.

 

[Bert63]

Aside from the integrated grip, what is the R5 missing to be considered a professional camera? A slightly higher mechanical frame rate?

I don’t see $2500 dollars difference between the R5 and the 1DX, much less anything Sony has out there.

 

[Skux]

All this paid work I've done on my 5Diii and it turns out I don't even have a pro body. I'm absolutely floored.

 

[David - Sydney]

Not all designs generate the same amounts of heat, as long as the box can dissipate the amount of heat generated inside, it will not overheat. The Canon design generates a lot of heat internally, Sony has learned to reduce heat generation, a larger camera with more surface area can dissipate more, so I can conceive a much longer time to overheat as being possible at least. Remember, the Canon design is 2 years or more old, newer models will be improved.

I see 3 main areas of heat generation in the R5:
1. Given the 8K spec and dual cards, it would be assumed that it would have dual CFe slots. We know that they are hot spots from the R5 measurements. A larger body would be needed to dissipate the heat (however it is done) similar to the 1DXiii.
2. The sensor is the 2nd and the 1DXiii doesn't have IBIS. If the Sony (or R1) has IBIS then there needs to be a better way to move the heat. Fan/convection appears to be the only option here as IBIS doesn't allow significant heat conduction to the chassis
3. Processor/DRAM. Roger's teardown shows heat spreaders for the processor/DRAM but they would need to be bigger and better connected to the chassis. Besides clever firmware, a smaller node size eg 7nm is the best way to reduce heat generation and increase performance (and yield per wafer). It is amazing to think that semiconductor manufacturing average lead time is 3 months. Big problem if you have design flaws!
One option for the sensor size is for the R1 to have higher shutter speeds with interpolated resolution from whatever is native down to 20mp. Best of both worlds (high res for non-sports and 8K video and speed/low res for sports). Based on previous designs, a dual Digix X may be used to handle this (and maybe spread the heat generation by running each at a lower clock rate?).

"Pro" to me implies excellent weather sealing. Grip can be integrated or not but if not then heat management will have the same issues as the R5. The 1DXiii avoids 2 issues as it doesn't have IBIS or a larger sensor (and associated processing in certain video modes).
Excellent weather sealing from Sony bodies hasn't been their strong suit.
Peltier devices are inefficient, not small and are power hungry so it is hard to imagine them being used from the internal batteries. Heat pipe/sinks could be used to conduct heat into a separate chamber that is weather sealed from the internal electronics but vented. How to use fans within it and maintain overall weather sealing without low temperature burns from the chassis would be a challenge

It will be interesting to see what they come up with as well as the R1 to address these issues

 

[Kiton]

The R5 is a GREAT camera, I call it my 5d mk 6. Who cares what Sony brings next, then Nikon, then leica etc etc,
I almost switched, I had an A9 and a few lenses, dumped it for the R5.
Canon is a pissy company, but the cameras are pretty nice!

I get AP switching, it is a branding co-op deal, they paid a fraction of the cost,
for the average shooter who pays the full whack, now that R5 is here, switching just isn't worth it.

 

[JackHa2006]

define ‘pro’. My two R5’s are hard at work these days now earning back their investment

According to Canon the R5/R6 are both professional and consumer cameras whereas the 1DX is only a professional camera.

 

[VivaLasVegas]

Once Canon announces their superteles in RF 400 f2.8 or RF 500 f2.8 and RF 600 f4, then we know the R1 is well on its way.

1DXM1: 18mp, 1080p@30, 12fps, dual cpu
1DXM2: 20mp, 4k@60, 14fps, dual cpu
1DXM3: 20mp, 5.5k@60, 16fps, single cpu

R1: 33mp(minimum for 8k), 8k@30, 18fps, single cpu

That’s my 2 cents.

 

[shawn]

Is this type of camera even relevant anymore? I contend that they aren’t. Oversized and overpriced is what this will be. It’s just another scam to take more money from “pros”.

 

[DBounce]

I am was more thinking about how some have shown the A7SIII overheating faster than the R5 in 4K. Has that been debunked and I missed it? Also, I am continually impressed with how much heat is generated by modern computers. As silly as a comparison as this is, my new laptop releases its heat in the direction of where I like to keep my mouse, and it can actually get noticeably to even uncomfortably hot even doing routine tasks much less crunching data coming off an 8K sensor. So, put another way, if Sony has figured out how the heat can be dissipated faster than it is generated during 8K video processing, that will be very interesting and kudos to them. This really is not meant to be anti-Sony, I am generally impressed with what they have done. I'll be skeptical of the "8K-no overheating" statement for a body without active heat dissipation until it is actually verified or we understand the limitations for any camera manufacturer. But, this is a rumored specification of a rumored camera. Until something is released, anything is possible.

Preproduction models. And it was only a few instances. In the three blind elephants video he explained that it was because the lens he was using had a plastic lens mount and could not properly dissipate the heat. I’ve yet to hear any incidents outside of those few cases. And several users have since tried to overheat the Sony by sitting out under a heat lamp... I think one guy even put it in an oven. Needless to say overheating should not be an issue in real world usage.
The Canon R5 is a different story. Mine overheated in an air conditioned room after intermittent shooting for half an hour. And that was after the firmware update. Needless to say I sent it back.

 

[privatebydesign]

Once Canon announces their superteles in RF 400 f2.8 or RF 500 f2.8 and RF 600 f4, then we know the R1 is well on its way.

1DXM1: 18mp, 1080p@30, 12fps, dual cpu
1DXM2: 20mp, 4k@60, 14fps, dual cpu
1DXM3: 20mp, 5.5k@60, 16fps, single cpu

R1: 33mp(minimum for 8k), 8k@30, 18fps, single cpu

That’s my 2 cents.

How do you get 33mp 8K off a 3:2 sensor?

8k = 7,680 minimum, but Canon never use the video versions always the DCI versions, so 8,192. That is what the R5 is and that is a 44.8mp sensor.

 

[DBounce]

Once Canon announces their superteles in RF 400 f2.8 or RF 500 f2.8 and RF 600 f4, then we know the R1 is well on its way.

1DXM1: 18mp, 1080p@30, 12fps, dual cpu
1DXM2: 20mp, 4k@60, 14fps, dual cpu
1DXM3: 20mp, 5.5k@60, 16fps, single cpu

R1: 33mp(minimum for 8k), 8k@30, 18fps, single cpu

That’s my 2 cents.

You can’t get a 8K video image from a 33MP photo sensor, because after you crop the top and bottom to DCI format you have too few pixels to work with.

 

[privatebydesign]

I think a more interesting point raised in this rumor is the idea that it is going to be a "Pro" camera, that in this context has been taken as a sports and high frame rate low resolution camera in the style of the 1DX series and Nikon D single digit series yet the Sony competitor is breaking that standard with 45mp as opposed to 20ish, which is even found in the A9.

I'd be interested to know what market research Sony have done to indicate they would have a profitable market in a 1 series high resolution camera when Canon and Nikon are both fairly sure there isn't one. Personally I'd love a 1 series body with an R5 sensor in it, but I don't believe Canon and Nikon think there are enough people like me who would actually purchase one.

 

[shawn]

I think a more interesting point raised in this rumor is the idea that it is going to be a "Pro" camera, that in this context has been taken as a sports and high frame rate low resolution camera in the style of the 1DX series and Nikon D single digit series yet the Sony competitor is breaking that standard with 45mp as opposed to 20ish, which is even found in the A9.

I'd be interested to know what market research Sony have done to indicate they would have a profitable market in a 1 series high resolution camera when Canon and Nikon are both fairly sure there isn't one. Personally I'd love a 1 series body with an R5 sensor in it, but I don't believe Canon and Nikon think there are enough people like me who would actually purchase one.

Some Pros will always want a 1 series body. But the fact is it may be an anachronism in 2020. Explain to me why we need an even bigger camera body?

 

[privatebydesign]

Some Pros will always want a 1 series body. But the fact is it may be an anachronism in 2020. Explain to me why we need an even bigger camera body?

'We' don't need a bigger camera body, but I (and I'm not alone) have been using the same form factor for 20 years so my answer would be why would I want to change? When you consider the added functionality of a 1series camera, the additional battery life, the portrait orientation buttons and dials along with the durability and weather sealing having an integrated body/grip afford, and the fact that pros often work with this thing in their hands for hours every single day you might start to understand how important those ergonomics are.

 

[expatinasia]

Is this type of camera even relevant anymore? I contend that they aren’t. Oversized and overpriced is what this will be. It’s just another scam to take more money from “pros”.

The larger body is a must for pro sports photographers as it holds a larger battery, has vertical/horizontal buttons, better weather sealing, balances better with a large lens on a monopod and is more comfortable to hold to the face for long periods.