Opinion: Canon’s mounting woes

[FaolainWolf]

I don’t get why people are really pissed at this, it’s their mount, their company. I guess they can do what they want? I purchase rf lenses so I have no issue with this.

Precisely. In what other industry are people angry because one manufacturer doesn't facilitate the purchase of a competing product? Does Chevy license Ford to manufacture compatible engines? Does Apple allow Android plug-ins? The entire premise is stupid. If you want to buy another brand, buy it! Don't expect Canon to sacrifice value in order to make it happen for you. That would be foolish.

 

[Richard CN]

With the newly announced Sigma 10-18mm f/2.8 lens for APS-C, I do start wishing for RF(-s) Sigma lenses a bit more.
Also glad that Canon doesn’t have an EVF-less RF body yet, so I’m still not interested in crop bodies

that does looks like a very sweet lens. I will be very curious to see the reviews. Even though I dabbled with a fuji camera body and didnt really like it, it may get me to try again. We'll see what Canon's new RF-S UWA will look like soon enough apparently though.

 

[AlanF]

Precisely. In what other industry are people angry because one manufacturer doesn't facilitate the purchase of a competing product? Does Chevy license Ford to manufacture compatible engines? Does Apple allow Android plug-ins? The entire premise is stupid. If you want to buy another brand, buy it! Don't expect Canon to sacrifice value in order to make it happen for you. That would be foolish.

You always know the discussion is ******* once the car analogies show up...

 

[koenkooi]

that does looks like a very sweet lens. I will be very curious to see the reviews. Even though I dabbled with a fuji camera body and didnt really like it, it may get me to try again. We'll see what Canon's new RF-S UWA will look like soon enough apparently though.

Fuji bodies are significantly larger than the M6II and all but one have fewer megapixels, so that is a no-go for me. Also everything Fuji related is at least twice the price of EF-M or RF equivalents, replacing the 11-22, 22 and 32 is $$$$$$$. This Sigma is a move in the right direction.

In the mean time I'll keep using the M6II when I need small&light and save up of the RF180L Macro

 

[scyrene]

you can crop full frame, but you can't uncrop Aps-c

This is the crux of it. No more, no less.

 

[scyrene]

View attachment 212017

In seriousness, I found it challenging to understand when first introduced to the concept, but I try to learn.

 

[neuroanatomist]

Does Chevy license Ford to manufacture compatible engines?

Probably not. But Toyota and Subaru built an electric SUV together (Toyota BZX4, Subaru Solterra).

Zeiss makes lenses for Sony (well, actually Cosina makes lenses for Zeiss for use on Sony cameras), Nikon licensed and is rehousing lenses made by Tamron. If it were in the best interest of both Canon and one or more 3rd party manufacturers to collaborate with each other, it would already be happening. It appears that Canon has decided it's not in their best interest, though that may change in the future.

 

[AlanF]

Probably not. But Toyota and Subaru built an electric SUV together (Toyota BZX4, Subaru Solterra).

Zeiss makes lenses for Sony (well, actually Cosina makes lenses for Zeiss for use on Sony cameras), Nikon licensed and is rehousing lenses made by Tamron. If it were in the best interest of both Canon and one or more 3rd party manufacturers to collaborate with each other, it would already be happening. It appears that Canon has decided it's not in their best interest, though that may change in the future.

The car manufacturers share engines like mad - I discovered this when I was going to buy a Merc some years ago and discovered the engine was shared by several cheaper makes offering much better value. Here are a few I've just googled and founds loads more:
https://www.motorist.sg/article/694/5-cars-with-engines-from-another-brand https://www.hotcars.com/surprising-cars-share-same-engine/ https://www.carsguide.com.au/car-news/twinning-cars-that-you-might-not-know-share-engines-88500 and more if you search.

 

[AlanF]

Precisely. In what other industry are people angry because one manufacturer doesn't facilitate the purchase of a competing product? Does Chevy license Ford to manufacture compatible engines? Does Apple allow Android plug-ins? The entire premise is stupid. If you want to buy another brand, buy it! Don't expect Canon to sacrifice value in order to make it happen for you. That would be foolish.

They don't need to licence. And enthusiasts do change engines: https://www.hotcars.com/heres-why-people-are-putting-chevy-engines-into-their-ford-hot-rods/ and

 

[Dragon]

I have not read all the previous post and discussions about it, I say it in advance.

So I'm referring just to this phrase I quoted, extrapolated from the context.

If you ever used an incident light exposure meter, you would have seen that nowhere the "frame size" is ever taken into consideration; the EV (exposure value) of a scene is always the same, regardless of your gear. So if you "block" two sides of the triangle, the shutter speed and the iso (yes, "real" iso vary from brand to brand, and even between cameras of the same brand; let's pretend that iso is the same), than the aperture, when measured with an incident light meter, or the total light measured with a lux meter, it's the same thing, well the aperture/light intensity is exactly the same, regardless of your sensor size.

The key point you are missing is that the light meter is measuring light intensity per unit area and with a bigger sensor you have more area and thus more light with the same aperture.

 

[Walrus]

The key point you are missing is that the light meter is measuring light intensity per unit area and with a bigger sensor you have more area and thus more light with the same aperture.

Take a light reading in a scene, let's say f2 1/250s 100iso, input those values in a medium format, a FF, an Aps and a 1" sensor camera, and see if the exposure value (aka the light intensity in the picture) changes. The sensor/film size is irrelevant to the captured EV of a scene.

 

[neuroanatomist]

 

[pixelpower]

In 2016, I made the mistake of purchasing a Sigma Art 50mm lens. After about a week, I noticed that some of my portraits were misfocused by about 1cm shooting the lens wide open. I exchanged the lens, but it did not help. My fellow photographers and I put the lens to a focus test with a focusing target on a Canon 1DsMkIII and a 5DMkiV. We shot the lens on a tripod, Single shot AF at wide open focusing at about 4 feet. We got the green dot focus confirmation in the cameras every time. 45% of shots were perfectly focused, 10% were out of focus by at least 6cm, and 45% of shots were front or back focused by about o.5cm. We used their dock to try to fix the misfocusing but could not. We used the old EF 50/1.2 and 85/1.2 for the same test and they focused correctly 99% of the time.

We confronted the Canada Sigma sales rep with this information. He reluctantly acknowledged that Canon has never shared any code or other information with Sigma; all their autofocus protocols for Canon bodies have been reverse engineered by Sigma on their own, ALWAYS. He thought they (Sigma) were damn good at their achievements, we should just chill, stop the lens down one or two stops and be happy. We returned the lens and just bought EF and Rf lenses since then. Case Closed.

 

[Del Paso]

The car manufacturers share engines like mad - I discovered this when I was going to buy a Merc some years ago and discovered the engine was shared by several cheaper makes offering much better value. Here are a few I've just googled and founds loads more:
https://www.motorist.sg/article/694/5-cars-with-engines-from-another-brand https://www.hotcars.com/surprising-cars-share-same-engine/ https://www.carsguide.com.au/car-news/twinning-cars-that-you-might-not-know-share-engines-88500 and more if you search.

This is true, but only for engines they don't want to produce themselves, for reasons of cost, volumes, experience etc...
If I'm not mistaken, you're never given the choice between the original -brand engine and the competitor's in the same c.c. and output category.
So, no competition like in the camera industry between OEM and 3rd. party.

 

[scyrene]

Take a light reading in a scene, let's say f2 1/250s 100iso, input those values in a medium format, a FF, an Aps and a 1" sensor camera, and see if the exposure value (aka the light intensity in the picture) changes. The sensor/film size is irrelevant to the captured EV of a scene.

Do you think an image taken with the same headline exposure values on every format will look the same? Do you think ISO 3200 looks the same on a phone as APS-C??

 

[AJ]

In 2016, I made the mistake of purchasing a Sigma Art 50mm lens. After about a week, I noticed that some of my portraits were misfocused by about 1cm shooting the lens wide open. I exchanged the lens, but it did not help. My fellow photographers and I put the lens to a focus test with a focusing target on a Canon 1DsMkIII and a 5DMkiV. We shot the lens on a tripod, Single shot AF at wide open focusing at about 4 feet. We got the green dot focus confirmation in the cameras every time. 45% of shots were perfectly focused, 10% were out of focus by at least 6cm, and 45% of shots were front or back focused by about o.5cm. We used their dock to try to fix the misfocusing but could not. We used the old EF 50/1.2 and 85/1.2 for the same test and they focused correctly 99% of the time.

We confronted the Canada Sigma sales rep with this information. He reluctantly acknowledged that Canon has never shared any code or other information with Sigma; all their autofocus protocols for Canon bodies have been reverse engineered by Sigma on their own, ALWAYS. He thought they (Sigma) were damn good at their achievements, we should just chill, stop the lens down one or two stops and be happy. We returned the lens and just bought EF and Rf lenses since then. Case Closed.

Yes - that's how it used to be, with phase-detect AF systems.
I never got very far with the AF calibration system. The issue was a inconsistency, rather than consistent back/front focus issues
But now we have mirrorless cameras where these kinds of focusing problems go away. Chances are, that 2016 Sigma 50 Art you had would have focused perfectly on a mirrorless body.
Which begs the question. Did Canon cut off the 3rd party lens manufacturers once Canon's AF advantage was gone? Hmmm....

 

[Walrus]

Do you think an image taken with the same headline exposure values on every format will look the same? Do you think ISO 3200 looks the same on a phone as APS-C??

No, I don't.

But that's not the point; we're talking EV of a scene, pure exposure; we're not talking SNR.

Sun doesn't care about your camera, nor a strobe set to a certain power will care about your camera and its sensor; the EV of a scene doesn't change with your sensor size.

 

[Redline]

I don’t get why people are really pissed at this, it’s their mount, their company. I guess they can do what they want? I purchase rf lenses so I have no issue with this.

It's annoying. It wouldn't be so annoying if they produced enough lenses to justify cornering their "RF" mount market if you want to call it that. And look what happens when companies don't allow such innovation and restricting it. They don't, in my opinion, never go anywhere other than people moving away from it. Sony is doing well by allowing 3rd party solutions. People will buy what they want but restricting it I don't think it's beneficial at all.

 

[neuroanatomist]

It's annoying. It wouldn't be so annoying if they produced enough lenses to justify cornering their "RF" mount market if you want to call it that. And look what happens when companies don't allow such innovation and restricting it. They don't, in my opinion, never go anywhere other than people moving away from it. Sony is doing well by allowing 3rd party solutions.

Thanks for sharing your opinion. Too bad the facts prove your opinion to be incorrect. As of last year, Canon had grown to become the #1 mirrorless brand. They continue to dominate the overall camera market (which they've led for 20 years). Sony is now a relatively distant second, and though they gained substantial market share in the past few years (Nikon used to be a close second to Canon, now they're a distant third), last year Sony's gains seem to have plateaued (they lost a small bit of market share).



As always, you are welcome to your own opinion...but not to your own facts. At least you have the support of people like @Walrus, who also completely ignores facts and physics in favor of his own beliefs.

People will buy what they want but restricting it I don't think it's beneficial at all.

Evidently Canon has a different opinion. I'm certain that the company who's led the ILC market for >20 years knows more about what is beneficial for them in that market than a rando on the internet. I get that it's not beneficial to you, and that's fine, but Canon doesn't care.

 

[Dragon]

Take a light reading in a scene, let's say f2 1/250s 100iso, input those values in a medium format, a FF, an Aps and a 1" sensor camera, and see if the exposure value (aka the light intensity in the picture) changes. The sensor/film size is irrelevant to the captured EV of a scene.

OK, I will try this another way. EV represents light intensity per unit area, and as you say, the numbers will look the same re f stop, speed, and ISO but here is the difference. If I use a 20 MP FF it will have pixels 2.5 times the size (area) of the pixels on a 20 MP APS-c (Canon) so each pixel will have more than a full stop of extra light to integrate than the APS camera. You will need make the aperture about 1-1/3 stops smaller on the FF to have the same amount of light hitting each pixel on the FF as you had before on the crop frame camera (you also have to turn up the ISO by 1-1/3 stops) At that point, magically, you will also have the same depth of field (and signal-to-noise) as you had with the larger aperture and lower ISO setting on the crop camera. Look up equivalency and read and read again until you understand what is going on. It is not intuitive until you take all the variables into account, but when you do, it is obvious and it really works.

The FF does come out ahead with high MP cameras because equivalently high MP crop cameras challenge lenses much more both in terms of design limits and diffraction limits. Shoot with an M6 II, a 90D or an R7 for while and you will see what I mean.