Sony's New a7RII Camera Delivers World's First Back-Illuminated FF Sensor

[zlatko]

Exactly. Some people want to take things as personal insults.

Can you really blame them considering just last page "Zlatko: While (mostly) anonymous engineers nitpick about 7-stop shadow lifting online, photographers at the top of their game are using Canon to produce great work" ....

No insult is intended. Some engineers are keenly interested in things like signal noise reduction and some perceive Canon as lacking in this area. But the lack of radical (7-stop) underexposure recovery hasn't stopped some of the best photographers in the world from choosing and using Canon to make great work. That's a fact. The point about anonymity is that it lets anyone be a ferocious critic, without disclosing their credentials, biases or motivation. It's like the famous New Yorker cartoon caption that said, "On the Internet, nobody knows you're a dog".

 

[dolina]

Given enough incentive Canon could always outsource to Sony again their CMOS sensor requirements.

Sony CMOS sensors are good enough for Apple, Hassleblad, Phase One and Pentax so I cannot see it not be good enough for Canon.

For those who may not be aware Canon's Powershot G7 X uses the same BSI sensor used on the RX100 III.

People are so religious with gear. It's just gear man... the image is what counts!

 

[Dylan777]

Given enough incentive Canon could always outsource to Sony again their CMOS sensor requirements.

Sony CMOS sensors are good enough for Apple, Hassleblad, Phase One and Pentax so I cannot see it not be good enough for Canon.

For those who may not be aware Canon's Powershot G7 X uses the same BSI sensor used on the RX100 III.

People are so religious with gear. It's just gear man... the image is what counts!

+1....Regardless big/heavy or small/light. Pick the system(s) that fit our needs.

My admiring photographer. Most of her amazing photos are 50 and 85mm: https://www.flickr.com/photos/75571860@N06/

Instead of buying gear, I'm thinking to take some PP classes in near future

 

[jd7]

i think 2-3 stops additional dr would be really beneficial to wildlife shooters.

(Edit: I used candc's comment as a starting point, it was not directed at candc personally.)

I think we all agree that more DR is good; the greater the increase, the greater the good, but that has never been the question. The question, as always, is which gear is going to serve all your needs the best at the price you can afford? If you have enough money to buy multiple kits then please do so, and I wouldn't mind hearing reports of their relative performance. What's annoying is the drumbeat of statements that reduce to: "Brand X is better for my shooting needs than Canon, so if you don't also prefer Brand X then you're either incompetent or a Canon fanboi."

If you want to tell us how Brand X did for your particular type of shooting please do so. But STOP telling us to be outraged that Canon's performance doesn't measure up. There are lots of things in this world to be outraged about, and Canon sensors are not among them.

+1000

+1

Being able to do a 7 stop lift of shadows is good technology demonstration, but not necessarily a good example of something which will provide a practical advantage. So the issue then is, in what circumstances does the extra DR available in a single Exmor exposure provide a significant benefit to the final image, and how significant is that benefit in those circumstances? Every now and then a CR thread starts to discuss those things ...

 

[jd7]

I have a genuine question for anyone with experience with both Canon and Exmor sensors. And to an extent it picks up Sporgon's comment that maybe an Exmor sensor would provide more advantage for a sports shooter than a landscape shooter.

If I took, say, a portrait shot at midday in bright sun, would the Exmor sensor allow me to produce a significantly better image from a single exposure? What I'm thinking about is if you underexpose the image as a whole to protect highlights such as sun reflecting of shiny skin, and I then lifted the shadows and mid tones, would the skin texture survive? Would the result be noticeably different from what a Canon would produce?

I realise there are things you can do to shoot a portrait in midday sun - use of reflectors, diffusers, flashes/strobes - but I am curious to know whether the Exmor sensor would provide a significant benefit in that scenario.

 

[meywd]

Given enough incentive Canon could always outsource to Sony again their CMOS sensor requirements.

Sony CMOS sensors are good enough for Apple, Hassleblad, Phase One and Pentax so I cannot see it not be good enough for Canon.

For those who may not be aware Canon's Powershot G7 X uses the same BSI sensor used on the RX100 III.

People are so religious with gear. It's just gear man... the image is what counts!

+1....Regardless big/heavy or small/light. Pick the system(s) that fit our needs.

+1 I only started photography recently (2 years) and when I wanted to choose my first camera, I choose the Canon over the Nikon for one reason only, which was my fascination with the 5D line since the original 5D, of course all I could afford was the T3i which was great at the time, however when I got the 5D III it was really on another level, many will say that you can capture a great image with any modern camera, and that is true, but its also misleading, you can capture the greatest image, if it falls within the capabilities of the camera, and the 5D III is the camera that makes most images fall within the range you can do, its an amazing all-around camera, of course its not as good as the 1D X, and maybe the a7RII, which now after 3 years is raising to challenge it, but the thing is, the a7/a7R/a7S are not all-around cameras, neither has the ability to replace the 5D III on all fronts, still if the a7R II meets your needs more the 5D III then you should go and get it, if Fuji/Olympus/Sony/Nikon meet your needs more than Canon cameras then you should get them, but the 5D III will stay for me the better option, even in the smallest things like the UI/Grip/Size/Controls, and its clear I am not alone in this, which is why a brand like Canon will not die easily, yes if Sony continues to try to be ahead and stay ahead for years to come, then Canon will be affected, however in the worst case scenario, they will become a lens maker like Sigma and Zeiss, but I really don't see that happening.

 

[jd7]

True, but that's only looking at the results - but how much more time does it take to bracket, merge and check that deghosting worked properly (it's not like the software always gets it right, after all there's no way of telling if you want a ghost removed or opaque).

I've recently shot some panos of a group of horses dozing in the woods, i.e. they're in the shadows and behind 'em is sunlight. That's 15ev of dynamic range with dual_iso. Single frame is fine, but with pano merging you have to check for every tail waggling, every eye blinking and every head moving. Double or triple that possibility of deghosting errors by adding bracketing, i.e. having a pano consisting not only of ~10 exposures but 20 or 30? Nah, I'd rather have more sensor dr thank you very much and save the hdr merging step

Hi Marsu - and msm

Could a technique like this one be of any use to use in terms of dealing with things moving in your photo?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSpyvMdRSlY

Apologies if you are already familiar with this sort of thing, but I am new to the world of exposure merging and thought it was interesting when I stumbled across it recently. I'm still experimenting with it to see if I like the results in practice.

 

[ajfotofilmagem]

If I took, say, a portrait shot at midday in bright sun, would the Exmor sensor allow me to produce a significantly better image from a single exposure? What I'm thinking about is if you underexpose the image as a whole to protect highlights such as sun reflecting of shiny skin, and I then lifted the shadows and mid tones, would the skin texture survive? Would the result be noticeably different from what a Canon would produce?

Underexpose an image by how much?

If one or two stops, the results are similar between Canon and EXMOR.
If 4 or 5 stops, EXMOR will show less noise after lifting the deep shadows.

 

[LetTheRightLensIn]

When did anyone say that Exmor is some magic sensor that makes any photo better in any condition????

Yeah, that seems about as silly as someone stating that Canon sensors deliver poor, sub-par, unacceptable IQ. Oh, wait...someone did actually state that. :

I think they said that when under certain conditions compared to current options from elsewhere.

 

[LetTheRightLensIn]

Exactly. Some people want to take things as personal insults.

Can you really blame them considering just last page "Zlatko: While (mostly) anonymous engineers nitpick about 7-stop shadow lifting online, photographers at the top of their game are using Canon to produce great work" ....

No insult is intended. Some engineers are keenly interested in things like signal noise reduction and some perceive Canon as lacking in this area. But the lack of radical (7-stop) underexposure recovery hasn't stopped some of the best photographers in the world from choosing and using Canon to make great work. That's a fact. The point about anonymity is that it lets anyone be a ferocious critic, without disclosing their credentials, biases or motivation. It's like the famous New Yorker cartoon caption that said, "On the Internet, nobody knows you're a dog".

I will say it again, you can take tons of awesome shots with Canon, beyond tons, but that still doesn't mean that if they updated their sensors there would not be more scenarios in which you could either manage at all or manage much more easily imaging under. Some don't care about that latter at all, some wouldn't mind if the opportunities got expanded.

As for the last bit, one could also say it makes it easier for them to tell it like it is and not have to worry about stepping on toes.

 

[LetTheRightLensIn]

I have a genuine question for anyone with experience with both Canon and Exmor sensors. And to an extent it picks up Sporgon's comment that maybe an Exmor sensor would provide more advantage for a sports shooter than a landscape shooter.

If I took, say, a portrait shot at midday in bright sun, would the Exmor sensor allow me to produce a significantly better image from a single exposure? What I'm thinking about is if you underexpose the image as a whole to protect highlights such as sun reflecting of shiny skin, and I then lifted the shadows and mid tones, would the skin texture survive? Would the result be noticeably different from what a Canon would produce?

I realise there are things you can do to shoot a portrait in midday sun - use of reflectors, diffusers, flashes/strobes - but I am curious to know whether the Exmor sensor would provide a significant benefit in that scenario.

sometimes yes and sometimes no

and

sometimes a reflector helps add a certain glow (including of tone) that would be a pain to try to PP in later and saves work

i've done little model/portrait work myself

 

[3kramd5]

I have a genuine question for anyone with experience with both Canon and Exmor sensors. And to an extent it picks up Sporgon's comment that maybe an Exmor sensor would provide more advantage for a sports shooter than a landscape shooter.

If I took, say, a portrait shot at midday in bright sun, would the Exmor sensor allow me to produce a significantly better image from a single exposure? What I'm thinking about is if you underexpose the image as a whole to protect highlights such as sun reflecting of shiny skin, and I then lifted the shadows and mid tones, would the skin texture survive? Would the result be noticeably different from what a Canon would produce?

I realise there are things you can do to shoot a portrait in midday sun - use of reflectors, diffusers, flashes/strobes - but I am curious to know whether the Exmor sensor would provide a significant benefit in that scenario.

In my experience, the answer is generally no (5D2/5D3/A7R). If I'm shooting in midday sun and have to protect highlights such as a cloudy skyline, I use artificial lights or modifiers. The couple of shadow stops can't give me natural skin tones after a significant lift (at least not with my post processing skill set).

I typically use my A7R for resolution. I have a 5DS in order through a local shop, but may purchase an A7R2 instead for high res requirements.

 

[privatebydesign]

I have a genuine question for anyone with experience with both Canon and Exmor sensors. And to an extent it picks up Sporgon's comment that maybe an Exmor sensor would provide more advantage for a sports shooter than a landscape shooter.

If I took, say, a portrait shot at midday in bright sun, would the Exmor sensor allow me to produce a significantly better image from a single exposure? What I'm thinking about is if you underexpose the image as a whole to protect highlights such as sun reflecting of shiny skin, and I then lifted the shadows and mid tones, would the skin texture survive? Would the result be noticeably different from what a Canon would produce?

I realise there are things you can do to shoot a portrait in midday sun - use of reflectors, diffusers, flashes/strobes - but I am curious to know whether the Exmor sensor would provide a significant benefit in that scenario.

In my experience, the answer is generally no (5D2/5D3/A7R). If I'm shooting in midday sun and have to protect highlights such as a cloudy skyline, I use artificial lights or modifiers. The couple of shadow stops can't give me natural skin tones after a significant lift (at least not with my post processing skill set).

That is the point/problem/issue I have with large lifts, the tonality is not good enough much of the time.

My experience is from I only own Canon, but I print for other photographers who own just about everything.

 

[unfocused]

Thirty-seven pages rehashing the same old arguments that have been covered over and over in other threads.

Please God, let there be a new lens, flash or camera rumor to give people something else to talk about (not that it will make much difference anyway.)

 

[3kramd5]

Thirty-seven pages rehashing the same old arguments that have been covered over and over in other threads.

Please God, let there be a new lens, flash or camera rumor to give people something else to talk about (not that it will make much difference anyway.)

Heh, this is more than a new camera rumor; it's an announcement of an actual camera. All roads lead to DR.

 

[deleteme]

I have a genuine question for anyone with experience with both Canon and Exmor sensors. And to an extent it picks up Sporgon's comment that maybe an Exmor sensor would provide more advantage for a sports shooter than a landscape shooter.

If I took, say, a portrait shot at midday in bright sun, would the Exmor sensor allow me to produce a significantly better image from a single exposure? What I'm thinking about is if you underexpose the image as a whole to protect highlights such as sun reflecting of shiny skin, and I then lifted the shadows and mid tones, would the skin texture survive? Would the result be noticeably different from what a Canon would produce?

I realise there are things you can do to shoot a portrait in midday sun - use of reflectors, diffusers, flashes/strobes - but I am curious to know whether the Exmor sensor would provide a significant benefit in that scenario.

In my experience, no.
If one has to lift shadows a lot, the results can be usable but they won't be pretty.
This is exactly why the DR arguments are a waste of time. The notion that huge DR will save you if you are unprepared and make a crappy exposure or you are just unlucky or cannot plan for an important shoot is just silly. No matter what camera you have, massive underexposure will look rotten no matter what.

 

[Keith_Reeder]

If 4 or 5 stops, EXMOR will show less noise after lifting the deep shadows.

Unless you do the shadow heavy lifting in DPP.

I'm not a fan of the software, but it opens up Canon shadows in a way that would pass for the "magic" Sonys...

 

[Keith_Reeder]

It likely says something about what's on the mind of readers...

It definitely says all we need to know about the disruptive intent of the Sony/DR trolls...

 

[Keith_Reeder]

Given enough incentive Canon could always outsource to Sony again their CMOS sensor requirements.

The important bit is emphasised. It's just not as big a deal as the trolls insist on making of it...

 

[Keith_Reeder]

i think 2-3 stops additional dr would be really beneficial to wildlife shooters.

I'm a wildlfe photogrpaher - and I can easily get way more than 2-3 stops out of the shadows from my Canon kit.

Hint: don't assume that Lr/ACR are the only games in town when it comes to Raw conversion...