Sony's New a7RII Camera Delivers World's First Back-Illuminated FF Sensor

[simonxu11]

Hands-on preview from DPReview:

"PDAF will work even with third-party lenses via existing adapters, including in continuous AF tracking mode.

This is potentially a huge deal - especially for Canon users. We've used an a7R II with a Canon 24-70mm lens and a Metabones adapter, and focus is indeed very fast indeed. We'll be looking at this in more depth as soon as we have a production sample camera, but for now, we're highly impressed. Canon should expect some cancelled EOS 5DS orders..."


BUT...Canon sells BETTER ;D ;D

 

[PureClassA]

Seems like a lot of hefty posturing on here about how some people think the Sony R2 has already just made the 5DSR obsolete. I'm sure the Sony will be a fine camera, but still preferring the Canon system for a number of legitimate reasons doesn't make one a Canon Fanboy who is blinded to all else. It also doesn't mean we think the Sony is trash or inferior. Some folks need to get over the fact that even though Sony is certainly producing better overall sensors, that doesn't mean the Canon cameras are instant second tier, nor does it mean Canon is dying on the vine. Canon may have become slower to bring their patents and innovations to market, but they still make fantastic gear, and certainly beat everyone else on their lens system, which is a huge factor.

I think we will indeed see major strides (regarding DR and IQ) in the stills like 1DX2 and 5D4 just as we recently have in the introduction of the C300 II on the cinema side. I think canon made what seems to be a very good studio camera in the 5DS and 5DSR (mine is scheduled to arrive next week as per Amazon). And it looks like Sony has really great stuff coming as well. They just don't have the lenses I desire, which is (in my opinion) a greater factor than the body.

Let's all just shoot and enjoy the gear we love. There is a camera for YOUR specific needs out there. Be it Canon, Sony, Nikon, Leica, Fuji, etc... go find it and shoot. Stop the bashing.

 

[Ozarker]

Hehehe! Just love this sony a7R ii announcement.
Take this, mirrorslappers ...
Take this, oh so incredibly "innovative" Canon ...
Left in the dust. Sony and ff mirrorless on full throttle. Just love it. Now a few more good FE lenses at reasonable prices without zeiss badge and i am game. Anyways, 5d iii was definitely my last dslr-mirrorslapper. Goodbye Flipping mirrors!

Can I have your mirror slapping 5D III?

 

[PureClassA]

Amen. Another point well made. I LOVE the sound of the mirror. I don't understand why some are so hateful of it. There's nothing like the rhythm of 12FPS from a 1DX in a multi second burst. I also love and prefer OVF to EVF. So do a LOT of people. DOesn't mean EVF sucks (granted some genuinely do). It's a preference. That's it. Why the bashing?

Hehehe! Just love this sony a7R ii announcement.
Take this, mirrorslappers ...
Take this, oh so incredibly "innovative" Canon ...
Left in the dust. Sony and ff mirrorless on full throttle. Just love it. Now a few more good FE lenses at reasonable prices without zeiss badge and i am game. Anyways, 5d iii was definitely my last dslr-mirrorslapper. Goodbye Flipping mirrors!

Can I have your mirror slapping 5D III?

 

[LOALTD]

For all the "Canon is doing well"/"selling millions of cameras"/"making billions of dollars" folks:

They actually aren't even doing very well financially.

Canon stock is worth less now than it was 5 years ago.

If you invested $100, 5 years ago, in:

The stock market: you'd have $192

Sony Electronics: you'd have $105

Canon: you'd have $83

Since you seem to follow this more closely than I do (I don't own any Canon stock) did your calculation include dividends? Because many of the mutual funds and stocks that I do own have seen flat or declining prices, but that's because they've paid out dividends. If you reinvest those dividends, the actual earnings are much better than the stock prices indicate. So, I'm just curious, does your calculation include the value of dividends reinvested? Just wondering.

You are correct! These calculations assume the dividends are automatically reinvested in the stock. I used google finance.

 

[emko]

If Sony can do all this at cheaper price

If Sony can do this all at a cheaper price, why can't they take market share from Canon? Truly, that's the bottom line: the reviews mean nothing, forum posts mean nothing. All that matters is profit and market share. Sony's marketing and sales staff must be EPIC FAIL if they can't take market share with such a superior product. (assuming it lives up to the spec sheet). And let's all hope they ditch the lossy "raw."

I hope Sony does sell a bunch of these to get some action from Canon, but I won't hold my breath: so far Sony, Nikon and others have proven themselves inferior where it really counts: making a profit.

so you buy Canon because they sell more? wow , anyways Sony s sensors are selling way more then Canons in fact Sony cant even keep up with demand but who really cares about sales.

Its about the product not how much it sells or makes in profit,so if you want 4K video you will spend 9K just to have a damn CANON logo on your camera? while you can get 4K camera from another company for a fraction of the cost.

" but I won't hold my breath: so far Sony, Nikon and others have proven themselves inferior where it really counts: making a profit." wow haha i see you buy products because they make more profit ? you really don't live in the real world more people are switching to smaller cameras like the A7R from Canon then are people with small cameras switching to Canon.

keep defending the company that rips you off its your choice

 

[jrista]

If the rumors about the A7r II focusing Canon lenses quicky are true, I'm all-in. That would be amazing, especially if it worked with the 600mm f/4 (although I would still be looking for a higher frame rate body...maybe the NX1 will deliver in the end). I'm pretty happy that BSI sensors are hitting APS-C and FF formats now...time to stop wasting die space with obstructions, and get the full value of our sensor area. If this camera delivers low read noise at both low and high ISO settings with high dynamic range across the board...wow. I think I finally found my landscape camera, and possibly my all-arounder.

 

[emko]

If the rumors about the A7r II focusing Canon lenses quicky are true, I'm all-in. That would be amazing, especially if it worked with the 600mm f/4 (although I would still be looking for a higher frame rate body...maybe the NX1 will deliver in the end). I'm pretty happy that BSI sensors are hitting APS-C and FF formats now...time to stop wasting die space with obstructions, and get the full value of our sensor area. If this camera delivers low read noise at both low and high ISO settings with high dynamic range across the board...wow. I think I finally found my landscape camera, and possibly my all-arounder.

yea and i wish this was all in a DSLR maybe Nikon will use this sensor hopefully.

 

[Dylan777]

This is good news for FF mirrorless shooters

A7rII looks like a general to landscape body. My 2cents: A7sII could become a sport camera with faster fps and much cleaner in higher ISO.

I would love to see a7sII with:
1. same AF system as a7rII(or better)
2. 8-12fps
3. Even clearner in high ISO than current a7s
4. 20-24MP

To attract DSLR shooters, Sony/Zeiss needs to have even more native lenses, especially in ultra wide, 135mm and 200mm range. I don't mind spending more $$$ for higher quality lenses - same or better IQ than FE 55mm. I REALLY can't wait to hand on my Batis 25 and 85.

am I asking too much?

That's exactly what I'd like to see in an A7s II also Dylan. That would be one heck of a mirrorless camera! I'm waiting...

I might be the only one on CR site to have a7rII on pre-order tomorrow

I might as well get 4K monitor for it

I'll be ordering one as it served a specific purpose for me - an ultra-high quality but very portable landscape/fine art body that can utilize my best canon glass. I have and use the current a7r frequently and I'm hopeful that the II should address the shutter shake issue.

The only reason that might hold me back from pre-order a7rII is 47MP. I love mirrorless. I'm currently shooting with a7s(12MP). I do not feel it lack of DR. Love the face and eye focus feature.

 

[jrista]

If the rumors about the A7r II focusing Canon lenses quicky are true, I'm all-in. That would be amazing, especially if it worked with the 600mm f/4 (although I would still be looking for a higher frame rate body...maybe the NX1 will deliver in the end). I'm pretty happy that BSI sensors are hitting APS-C and FF formats now...time to stop wasting die space with obstructions, and get the full value of our sensor area. If this camera delivers low read noise at both low and high ISO settings with high dynamic range across the board...wow. I think I finally found my landscape camera, and possibly my all-arounder.

yea and i wish this was all in a DSLR maybe Nikon will use this sensor hopefully.

I used to really want a D800 or D810 for lanscapes. These days, I'm not so sure I would really want the Nikon DSLR option. I actually really like the adaptability of mirrorless cameras. They are a little small, however for most of the use cases where I'd use an A7r II or A6000, I don't need a huge body. In many cases, a smaller body is better. The appeal of the D810, as nice as that camera's IQ is, has faded...it's just too darn costly to get the camera and a compatible lens or two (for what I would want/need, over six grand.)

The Sony system has some great lenses. Many of their lenses are compact and extremely light, making the cameras very inconspicuous. I've gotten used to the controls and the bodies (the bodies don't really fit my hands, I still prefer Canon's ergonomics in that respect by far). Most of the time, I use the camera on a tripod of some kind, and operation is pretty much hands free with smartphone apps.

I've used a number of Sony cameras now. There is a lot of concern over the compression algorithm. Fundamentally, I don't like it myself...I think it's a bit of a cheat, and I would much prefer to have the actual RAW data. In some cases, it can cause some problems...the most egregious of which occur on star trails images. In well over 90% of my testing, the compression has not actually manifested in any way that I could actually see. And I'm a digger...I dig as deep into the signals as I can go. Lifting images seven, eight stops, you might finally start to see some purple color noise...I'm honestly not sure if that comes from the compression, or if it is just Sony's read noise or bias signal. Either way, I've never actually encountered any problems with their raw format in practice...so I've stopped worrying about it.

 

[LSXPhotog]

This is the camera I never thought I would see. Actually, I'm so impressed that I am going to wait for the 5D4 as my last shot from Canon. If it's disappointing, I'm getting this...

This is a big "F off" to Canon from Sony.

 

[jrista]

Take this, mirrorslappers ...

Well, it seems the a7RII has the same lossy not-RAW RAW files as the a7R. I wonder if it will be a shutterslapper like its predecessor.

The lossy compression does not exhibit as an issue in most practical use. It can exhibit problems in extreme situations...namely, if you shoot star trails, find another camera. Most other situations, I've never seen any problems caused by the compression. It isn't ideal, but neither is it a problem most of the time (isn't that what everyone says about Canon's high read noise? Are we now going to start a double standard...Canon's high read noise is perfectly OK, even though it can exhibit right up into the midtones on an all too frequent basis...but Sony's lossy compression is just completely unacceptable all the time despite the fact that it rarely exhibits artifacts in most images? ???)

As for the shutterslapper:

The α7R II has a new highly durable reduced-vibration shutter that realizes 50% less vibration from shutter movements compared to its predecessor, and has a cycle durability of approximately 500,000 shots4. The camera can also be set to Silent Shooting mode in order to shoot images quietly without any sensor vibration or movement.

I'd bet the 5Ds leaves the a7RII in the dust for unit sales.

Which is an absolutely meaningless factor for those who want things Canon does not offer.

 

[LetTheRightLensIn]

"Unrivaled 4K Movie Shooting Performance
The impressive video credentials of Sony’s new α7R II camera include the ability to record movies in 4K quality (QFHD 3840×2160) in either Super 35mm crop mode or full-frame mode.

In Super 35mm mode, the camera collects a wealth of information from approximately 1.8x as many pixels as 4K by using full pixel readout without pixel binning and oversamples the information to produce 4K movies with minimal moire and ‘jaggies’.

In full-frame mode, the α7RII utilizes the full width of the 35mm sensor for 4K recording, allowing users to utilize the expanded expressive power of the sensor. It is the world’s first digital camera to offer this in-camera full-frame format 4K recording capacity1.

The camera utilizes the advanced XAVC S7 codec during video shooting, which records at a high bit rate of 100 Mbps during 4K recording and 50 Mbps during full HD shooting.

Additionally, the α7RII model features a variety of functions to support a professional video workflow including Picture Profile, S-Log2 Gamma and S-Gamut, 120fps high frame rate movie shooting in HD (720p), time code, clean HDMI output and more."


So basically you likely get much better video than from Canon's new X10 plus MUCH better stills AND unlike the Canon, so ironic, the Sony can actually also take your Canon glass! AND the price will probably be about the same!

Maybe this finally forces Canon to wake up!

Delivers better video than anything can has under probably $15,000 and I'd dare say better stills quality than anything Canon has at any price. Imagine if next year Nikon packs this up in an all-around body and with a cropped RAW to give it some fps and buffer too?

 

[LetTheRightLensIn]

Canon has a great stills UI, awesome lenses so it would be nice if they bothered trying more for sensors and bodies again.

I mean what Canon user would not want that? But the same usual suspects in the forums keep applauding whatever they do. Oh low ISO DR doesn't really ever matter so who cares? The 5Ds is meant for slow work so what do you expect for buffer, speed, video, don't be crazy! COme on ability to focus manually while shooting, zebras? THat's $20,000 stuff!!!! Come on 4k???? slog formats? hfps video? clean hdmi out? LOL!

But look, it's not crazy.

D810 gives a cropped RAW so it gets AWESOME buffer performance with decent fps in one mode and then FF and tons of MP in another mode, you get both in one.

The D810 and Sony and other stuff use sensors made on modern fabs so they can make use of patents to give better DR at low ISO.

The new Sony A7R II is like 42MP AND will deliver 4k video with internal 100Mbps recording! and not just jaggy 4k video but in Super35 mode it will deliver not only zero line-skipping but oversampled 4k and slog2 and 120fps 720P and 60fps HD and clean HDMI output....

With Canon it's just "We [our MBAs not our engineers, most likely] see impossible."

 

[LetTheRightLensIn]

If the rumors about the A7r II focusing Canon lenses quicky are true, I'm all-in.

Wow if that is true than yeah all in! I'll keep my 5D3 for sports and add an a7R II for everything else since it could handle maybe even general shooting and wildlife (maybe other than BIF which I don't do too much anyway and always have the 5D3 for)! (maybe eventually transition to Nikon as can afford it since it's still nicer to have a real DSLR). Exciting times.

Sure I'd wayyyyy rather give my money to Canon and get a proper Canon body, but they seem to not want to bother with new sensors and they treat anything decent for video like $20,000 super pro stuff so what can you do, give the money to someone else.

 

[LetTheRightLensIn]

Also, basically this is likely the Nikon D820 sensor. The question is, will the Nikon data pipeline and additional optimizations yield superior quality as it was the case of the prior A7R vs D8xx? Mostly Sony's RAWs did not have the depth of the Nikon 14 Bit RAW NEFs. If there is ONE thing I pick on the A7R was the choices sony made in the handling of the data.

Looking at the base floor ISO of 100, I wonder if Nikon will re-tune it for dynamic range and continue the trend of the 810 towards ISO64, maybe even ISO32

Yeah hopefully they get rid of the silly RAW compression and handle the data path as well as Nikon.

 

[Chris Jankowski]

What does back illumination do?

See here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Back-illuminated_sensor

Please note that A7RII has the first FF BSI sensor. Due to high resolution of the sensor the relative improvement from the technology should be higher than in lower resolution sensor. The improvement is in low light sensitivity due to significant increase in the percentage of captured photons. For some designs of sensors for mobile phones this was an increase from 60% to 90%. That and manufacturing yield control were the reasons why this technology first appeared in mobile phones - Apple iPhone 4S with Sony sensor. The manufacturing process is difficult and the larger the sensor the harder it is to get reasonable manufacturing yield. Obviously Sony must have solved the yield problem to be able to release a FF BSI sensor.

As an aside, the newly announced Sony RX100 IV and RX10 MII have much more advanced sensor design again. The 1" sensor used in these cameras is not only BSI, but also stacked *and* has an integrated stacked RAM and has copper metal matrix instead of regular aluminium. This allows for lower heat build up and much faster image reading - that is why they can offer slow motion video at 960 fps in a pocketable camera. Of course, it is only a matter of time before this technolgy gets used in FF sensors. I'd guess 2-3 years.

 

[LetTheRightLensIn]

This just makes me want to wait more for the A7S II. I really love the idea of having a native non-binning 4k camera for video that is full frame and not Super 35. Prefer to have my lenses focal length be true on the sensor. And yes CR, 7 digit ISOs. Sony is only 2 stops away now with the a7S. Global shutter would be nice too. This also bodes extremely well for internal 4k on it too with what looks to be a nice codec short of ProRes

I actually kinda like the Super 35mm. Gives a bit more reach for wildlife,sports,macro video and Canon has great ultra wide stuff like 16-35 f/4 IS and so on these days so you can still shoot nice and reasonably wide landscape video stuff. And it's not quite so hard to get more DOF (sometimes FF video it can be a bit tricky).

Although you do lose 2+ stops of SNR, then again since this oversamples so much you won't lose nearly that much SNR.

Anyway exciting times. In another generation or so you'll have your FF non-line skipped video too.

 

[LetTheRightLensIn]

Does anyone know if Sony improved their RAW file handling for this version vs. the A7R?

Apparently not.

http://www.imaging-resource.com/news/2015/06/10/sony-rx10-ii-rx100-iv-and-a7r-ii-announced-were-blogging-live-from-the-pres

Q: what about lossless compression or un-compressed RAW files for the a7r2?
A: I checked with the product planner for the A7R II - the compression scheme is the same as in the past, no option for uncompressed

Man that's crazy. It seems like every company has to do their own ridiculous thing.
It's very puzzling in this case, since what are they protecting? Nothing. It's just plain bizarre. Maybe it lets them save some buffer and get more fps, but why not a slow, low buffer mode? These are often landscape cameras anyway since it's not a real DSLR.

 

[emko]

What does back illumination do?

See here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Back-illuminated_sensor

Please note that A7RII has the first FF BSI sensor. Due to high resolution of the sensor the relative improvement from the technology should be higher than in lower resolution sensor. The improvement is in low light sensitivity due to significant increase in the percentage of captured photons. For some designs of sensors for mobile phones this was an increase from 60% to 90%. That and manufacturing yield control were the reasons why this technology first appeared in mobile phones - Apple iPhone 4S with Sony sensor. The manufacturing process is difficult and the larger the sensor the harder it is to get reasonable manufacturing yield. Obviously Sony must have solved the yield problem to be able to release a FF BSI sensor.

As an aside, the newly announced Sony RX100 IV and RX10 MII have much more advanced sensor design again. The 1" sensor used in these cameras is not only BSI, but also stacked *and* has an integrated stacked RAM and has copper metal matrix instead of regular aluminium. This allows for lower heat build up and much faster image reading - that is why they can offer slow motion video at 960 fps in a pocketable camera. Of course, it is only a matter of time before this technolgy gets used in FF sensors. I'd guess 2-3 years.

the read out is so fast that rolling shutter is almost gone Sony is really pushing innovation right now. Once this hits a FF sensor its going to be insane.