Sony's New a7RII Camera Delivers World's First Back-Illuminated FF Sensor

[jrista]

There is no question that Canon service and support are excellent. Second to none. Not everyone needs CPS, though. We are not all sideline sports photographers with dual 1D X's and a handful of ten thousand dollar lenses. Some of us are, and if you are, you probably won't find a better brand than Canon for what you do.

But I would wager good money that there are many, many times more landscape photographers out there who could gobble up every stop of dynamic range you throw at them, than there are guys sitting on the sidelines at sporting events with thirty thousand dollars worth of equipment loaned to them by CPS. I would be willing to bet there are many times more wedding photographers who could use the high resolution and silent shutter of an A7r II. I would be willing to bet there are many times more studio photographers, macro photographers, street photographers, who could use the technology and image quality packed into the A7r II...than there are sports photographers who quality for and use Canon CPS and haul around tens of thousands of dollars of top of the line photography gear from one event to another. I would be the majority of the average people in the stands at those same events would get far more out of an A6000 and a 55-210mm zoom than they would from any camera Canon currently offers.

CPS is awesome...but you have to qualify. Particularly in America, the requirements to qualify are very stringent.

And...if the new breed of Sony alphas do indeed focus well when adapted to Canon lenses.... 8)

 

[meywd]

However, assuming everyone should jump ship is simply stupid, because Canon lenses are just awesome, and no matter what Sony does a lens will perform better on a native body

Hi meywd, if that was aimed at me I was only referring to mindless defense of an inferior sensor, sorry I should have made that a little clearer. And I agree Canon lenses are awesome, I own many, but to suggest that lenses will perform better on a native body isnt entirely true. Yes AF may be better, but my Canon 16-35 f4 produces much sharper and more detailed images with a Sony a7r than my 5D3.

No not you, it's targeted at those who state that staying with canon is stupid, I agree that with landscapes and shadows there is room for improvement on the Canon side, I use ML's Dual_ISO, but sometimes you feel the hit on the resolution, so better noise handling would be great, as for sharpness that's relative, it depends on pixel density so it's not easy to compare, for example the photos I saw from the 5Ds/r simply has superb detail, I really drool over one but I need the high ISO performance of the 5D3

 

[jeffa4444]

...Canon is just milking old tech for these idiots who keep buying it.

Yeah, all those high profile professional photographers using Canon, what a bunch of morons. The real experts like you are here on the Internet... :

They will keep on using what they have always been using. That doesn't mean what they are using is better, it just means they don't like change.

The situation is like IBM when PC's first arrived on the scene. People bought mainframes because they were "professionals" and didn't see the point of PCs. They thought it was just a fad, toys for the home. They were too conservative, did not want to embrace a new way of doing things. How many people use mainframes now days? Not that many. PCs on the other hand are everywhere. They were successful because they were flexible, accessible and affordable. They could do it all and they could do it anywhere.

That is what is going to happen in photography. Canon and Nikon are the IBMs of the imaging world, and they will go the way of IBM unless they adopt the technology of the future. It might not happen overnight, but it will happen.

Still seeing that imaginary upward trend in mirrorless sales, are you? :

Ive been invested in Canon for 35 years and recently sunk more money into glass. It doesnt make me blinkered though and a number of years ago I bought into the Olympus 4/3rd system mainly for weight saving. Since micro 4/3rds the system is even lighter and the performance markedly improved since Olympus started using Sony sensors. I have the cheapest OM-D camera the M10 but the performance given the sensor size is actually quite good. Will it replace my full-frame Canon camera, heck no but it has its place.
Professionally we use amongst others Sony F65 / F55 cameras and the thing Sony have the march on is sensors Canon is not even close. Sure the Arri Alexa is the cinematography king but its not 4K and the resolution doesnt match the two Sony cameras thats more about a preferred "look" which is closer to film but thats another story.
My point is Canon are NOT the image sensor leaders they may not have to be, there glass in most cases is class leading but again under challenge from Sigma and for Pro Landscape photographer, Zeiss. Canon cannot take professiional photographers invested in their glass for granted, Nikon once did and have played second fiddle to Canon ever since, Sony are in the long game and Canon are the targets.

 

[roby17269]

and for the studio pros the flash system need to be on par as well,

hmmm? most studio pros use pro studio strobes, the likes of Bowens, Profoto and Broncolor (in order on increased cost and quality) or Arri or other continuous lights... and you set them using Sekonic meters or others... for those, as long as you have a way of triggering your strobes (i.e. a standard hot shoe and it is not even a consideration for continuous setups), you're good

 

[jeffa4444]

Jrista, so you're serious about your interest in this camera? I think that's the most significant thing from this whole thread.

Absolutely. I held off on the A7r because of a few key things I did not like about it...the heavy shutter, some of the ergos, frame rate. All of that is either fixed or considerably improved with the A7r II. I am also in the process of selling off some of my Canon equipment, my 7D, 100-400mm, 16-35mm, probably my 50mm, an a variety of other photography and astrophotography related things, to fund the purchases of new cameras (definitely a Sony, not sure which one yet, as I still need an astro CCD.)

I definitely want the A7r II for landscapes. I've never liked the IQ I've gotten from Canon cameras for landscapes. Didn't like it with my 450D, had worse banding with the 7D, and really did not like the shadow performance of the 5D III at all (very blotchy on top of the banding.) This year has been really rough on the weather...big rain storms, hail storms, and even still some snow storms in the mountains (yes, in June ), and I just don't have the will or the time to go out into all of that for landscape photography. So the A7r II will probably wait until such time as I feel I can actually use it on a regular basis. At the same time, I need a more every day, all around camera that I can always have with me, ready to go, for birds and wildlife.

I simply cannot haul around my 5D III and giant 600mm lens all the time every day. I really wish I could, but I can't. It would all probably end up stolen at one point or another if I did anyway, and that I simply cannot have. The A6000, with its 11fps, would make an excellent every day birding and wildlife camera. It won't deliver the same kind of subject isolation I can get with the 600mm f/4 and a full frame...but, it will deliver photographs that I simply won't get because the 5D III and 600mm aren't at arms reach every single day. I miss opportunities almost every day because I just don't have a camera that I can bring with me everywhere. Canon has NOTHING that is even remotely as compelling as the A6000. Nothing. Nada. There is no class of Canon camera that compares to the A6000, or for that matter the Samsung NX1. The appeal of the A6000 is the E mount...it would be compatible with FE lenses, which makes it more cost effective. I am extremely intrigued by the NX1...but it doesn't quite offer enough to topple the value of the A6000. I'll be picking up an A6000 (or as is more likely, it's successor once it is announced...a6100? a7000?) once some of my other gear sells.

My experiences with the A7r, A7 II, and A6000 have all been great overall. I have absolutely no complaints about IQ. Everyone complains about the lossy RAW...I really encourage those who are interested to give one of these cameras a try, and see if you can ever spot an artifact from them that would actually matter. Even more important, evaluate whether any compression artifacts you do fine are worse than the read noise of a Canon camera. In my experience, there is absolutely no contest. I'll take Sony's lossy compression every single moment of every single day over Canons read noise. No, lossy compression in "raw" isn't ideal, and it isn't really RAW. But...it doesn't seem to matter in practice either. I simply cannot stand Canon read noise any more, I hate it, I despise it, with a passion... It's the nastiest noise on the market, and I can't wait to be done with it (although sadly, I think I'll be stuck with it so long as I have the 600mm f/4, and I have no plans nor desire to offload that lens...it's a thing of wonder, and the area where Canon truly excels. As such, a 5D IV is definitely in my future, if the specs hold up.)

I absolutely love the IQ from Sony cameras. And for me, that is what it ultimately boils down to...IQ. I just get better IQ with the Alpha series for everything but action photography (and in many cases, with the A6000, even for some action, I'll get excellent results.)

The rumors about the A7r II autfocusing much better with Canon lenses has me particularly intrigued. I did not have great experience with the metabones adapter I used when I rented the A7r last year. It was decent, but AF was slow, as it only used the contrast detection...and the drive was just slow. For landscapes, that did not really matter. The lack of an AA filter was a help with manual focus...when you nailed focus, you KNEW it...everything instantly hit razor sharp and shimmered abit. A micron off perfect focus, and you KNEW it. Interestingly, the lack of an AA filter? Absolutely not a problem. You just have to very slightly defocus...just barely enough to kill off the aliased shimmer...and bam, your lens just became an AA filter, without any meaningful loss in resolution, sharpness, or overall IQ. I guess that's just something you don't realize until you are sitting there doing it...but it's a strong argument for ditching the AA filter. (The only caveat would be with AF...unless you could reliably offset with microfocus adjustment by just the right minuscule amount to ensure autofocus locked just barely off perfect focus to blur high frequencies a bit.)

So yes...very seriously interested in the Sony Alpha line. I've been waiting for the A7r II. I'll take Sony's high DR, BSI 42.4mp any day over Canon's 50.6mp. These days, we have gobs of resolution. It's not about resolution. It's about pure, unadulterated IQ, and the data quality and flexibility to do whatever you want with the data and never have to worry about even a single band of read noise ever appearing, even with insane shadow lifts.

Would completely agree I like the Canon 6D but the banding and low light noise is really frustrating at times in landscape and it is slightly better than the 5D MKIII in this area. Sony are currently pulling away from the pack when it comes to sensors and the investment they are making ensures they will stay that way. The other advantage they have is in selling to Phase One, Hasselblad, Pentax, Olympus, Nikon (as well as Canon on 1" sensors) they are getting thoses companies feedback plus all the other companies in other fields they supply sensors to.
The alternatives are not that wide if Canon doesnt have the money or want to commite the money more likely to invest to simply supply its own needs. Leica use CMOSIS for design, Towerjazz/ Panasonic fabs, their is Fuji (who is partnering with Panasonic on sensor design), Omnivision (who dont make FF sensors), STMicro Electronics, Aptina (Nikon V series), Samsung and a few others. Sony has 50% of the stills / video camera sensor market, its sensor business grew by 40% in 2014 and is predicted to grow by a further 20% in 2015.
The professional sports photographers may well dominate with Canon cameras & glass but they alone will not sustain Canon business model.

 

[expatinasia]

At the Olympics, Canon turn up with lots of "spares" and things to rent for professionals that don't want to lug everything on the plane from home. Maybe there is a similar thing at F1 and other events?

Canon captured the professional sports photographer market back in the late 80s/early 90s when they went to EOS and developed their new autofocus system. Nikon didn't update their autofocus for a long time (maybe even not until the digital revolution?). This gave Canon a large chunk of people using the lenses professionally and with their big telephotos and AF, they kept people through upgrading and have continued to do so. Just like many people here, the cost of changing brands is high so once you go with one you're pretty much wedded to them. With so many people wedded to them, Canon has been able to underdeliver in terms of camera IQ whilst still keeping healthy sales.

What will be interesting to see is how Sony impacts or benefits from the "white lens brigade" as it has also chosen to use white as the color for its professional long telezooms.

F1 I do not know as I do not shoot that, but they are very supportive at most of the major int. sporting events so I do not see why it would be any different there. They want big whites on the side lines, and being lugged around by the photographers for all to see. They are also major sponsors at a lot of these events as well. It really is a very impressive (and very useful) service.

What I have noticed at some of the events I shoot, is the age difference of shooters and the gear they use. People that are getting on (like me) tend to use either Canon or Nikon, while some of the younger photographers that seem to be creeping onto the side lines tend to be much more open in what they use and that is where you are more likely to see a camera you may not have once expected to see, like a Sony.

Competition is good for us all, it keeps us all on our toes, Canon included!

 

[FunkyCamera]

So the megapixel fight starts up again and Sony brings a 42MP camera to a 50MP camera fight! LOL typical Sony fail. Hilarious how they'll rob so many idiots of their money with their low quality sensors and beer bottle quality lenses.399 AF points? Wow amazing, but unfortunately you only actually need 1. I can't remember when I last needed to focus on hundreds of things in the same photo. High ISO? It will be a snowstorm above 3200! Dynamic range? Sure, let me know when jpg is capable of more than 8 bit! There's a reason why ever pro uses Canon - taking pictures is more important than imaginary stats that are either useless or entirely fabricated.

If you want the best photos, you need a Canon. It's not hard to understand.

 

[Hillsilly]

I've just been listening to how the 50mp Canon sensor is actually a 60mp sensor that they've downscaled. That'll give them the ability to release a new camera with a "new" 60mp sensor (maybe the 1DXR?) without having to change sensors. Sony, with their measly 42mp sensor won't know what hit them.

 

[quod]

And I shake my head in disbelief at the likes of neuro... still vainly clinging to the mast of a sinking ship while all others have swum to safety...

+1 I'm excited about this camera. I love the ruggedness of my 5D3, but in the end, it's about IQ, and not about a "system" or profits or "who has the most [low IQ] megapixels" or all the other goofy arguments that are presented by the fanboys. If Canon can match the IQ, I'd happily buy more of their cameras.

 

[sanj]

Take this, mirrorslappers ...

Well, it seems the a7RII has the same lossy not-RAW RAW files as the a7R. I wonder if it will be a shutterslapper like its predecessor.

Take this, oh so incredibly "innovative" Canon ...
Left in the dust. Sony and ff mirrorless on full throttle.

I'd bet the 5Ds leaves the a7RII in the dust for unit sales.

Now a few more good FE lenses at reasonable prices without zeiss badge and i am game.

If only, if only...someday, the grass really will be greener. If only...

Neuro. Greetings from half way around the world. Consider this an open letter.

I am shocked by you close minded attitude towards all camera manufacturers except Canon. You are so enamored by Canon that you cannot see any good in anything else. You have pointed me towards the word 'system' and I thank you for that. And you have made me realize that no camera company is perfect.

When Sony comes out with such a ground breaking technology never seen before you cannot come up with a SINGLE positive thing about it. No praise, no admiration. How can you be so one sided in your thinking??

You take the term 'fan boy' to its heights.

 

[K-amps]

I might be the only one on CR site to have a7rII on pre-order tomorrow

I might as well get 4K monitor for it

I am close to your situation Dylan... Last week, I just got myself a Samsung 970Q monitor... love it, ofcourse had to upgrade my perfectly fine GTX 460 to a 960 to support 4k... but I will hold off on a pre-order.... I want to see real-life results and reviews. I am happy to note you got a new body to replace the one lost plus the 85mm Go get em Tiger!

 

[GMCPhotographics]

And it looks like Sony has really great stuff coming as well. They just don't have the lenses I desire, which is (in my opinion) a greater factor than the body.

And that's the point isn't it...we can have the best sensor in the world...and yet it's the glass which dictated how sharp and image, how much light and the contrast which hits that sensor.
What's the point of a 50+ mp camera if the lenses attached aren't as good? Or a tripod is needed with every shot to maximize the resolution? If we have a blur factor of just two MP then we have effectively halved our optical resolution to 25mp while still retaining the 50mp file size. I would rather sharp 25mp files than slightly blurred 50mp files which have the same optical resolution as the 25mp files.

I got some amazingly clear and sharp images from my 5DII / 5DIII's which blow up to really big size and still keep their per pixel sharpness. So i wonder what (or if) any improvement can really be made with a 5DSR using my existing lenses. If Canon's lenses (which are reputed to be the largest collection of the sharpest designs) are the best then how does that fare for Nikon or Sony glass which is largely out of date and with a portfolio mostly put together before the dawn of the Digital era?

For my investment and photographic needs, I've not seen any worthwhile argument to convince me that I need a higher resolution than my current cameras. I've never had a customer say to me...hmmm nice photo...but it needs to be bigger and sharper at 100% please.

 

[sanj]

So the megapixel fight starts up again and Sony brings a 42MP camera to a 50MP camera fight! LOL typical Sony fail. Hilarious how they'll rob so many idiots of their money with their low quality sensors and beer bottle quality lenses.399 AF points? Wow amazing, but unfortunately you only actually need 1. I can't remember when I last needed to focus on hundreds of things in the same photo. High ISO? It will be a snowstorm above 3200! Dynamic range? Sure, let me know when jpg is capable of more than 8 bit! There's a reason why ever pro uses Canon - taking pictures is more important than imaginary stats that are either useless or entirely fabricated.

If you want the best photos, you need a Canon. It's not hard to understand.

You really have a sense of humor.

 

[sanj]

...Canon is just milking old tech for these idiots who keep buying it.

Yeah, all those high profile professional photographers using Canon, what a bunch of morons. The real experts like you are here on the Internet... :

Like someone else we both know? Not being mean, just pointing out. I do consider you an expert. A Canon expert.

 

[psolberg]

news flash, every technology is coming to canon...someday
what was the point of this article? don't buy sony?

also what gives? so many said "I don't need more than 22MP. Or 36.6MP is too much or not enough different from 22". Now only 50 is good enough and 42 is "crappy"? PFFF get over it guys. You're worse than a political candidate in the republican party today.

 

[Marsu42]

How can you be so one sided in your thinking?? You take the term 'fan boy' to its heights.

Actually dedicated fanboi talk is quite revealing - if there's nothing left to argue in Canon's favor than "you don't need anything else, otherwise people wouldn't buy Canon" that's that.

Meanwhile, I employ you to have some sympathy with the Canon enthusiasts - after years of "high iso matters, that's b/c Sonikon has better low iso" and Sonikon now taking the lead everywhere, that's certainly mean and needs some re-adjustment of fanboi arguments

I've just been listening to how the 50mp Canon sensor is actually a 60mp sensor that they've downscaled.

Ugh? Could you link that? I thought upscaling the 7d2 tech would end up just with the 5ds res?

Well that has thrown the cat amongst the pigeons, FF back-illuminated. Canon will have to do something serious now, roll on the 1DX MkII and the 5D MkIV.

Imho the day of truth might be upon us - either it's just that Canon chose not to put their patents to use yet because they keep making (more) money with the current tech, or they don't see a way to release a competitive sensor against the evil Sonikon empire in specs *and* price.

Meanwhile, let's be happy the current Canon tech is "good enough" for most situations esp. expanding the dr with ML, so new sensor tech is nice to have, but not that vital as maybe 5 years ago...

 

[hambergler]

So the megapixel fight starts up again and Sony brings a 42MP camera to a 50MP camera fight! LOL typical Sony fail.

To the untrained eye, such as yours, you might think that. This sensor has been designed not just for stills but also for 4K video.

Expect 4K video on the A7rII to rock and be better than the 1DC or Canon's other sub-$10k cameras.

If you want the best photos, you need a Canon. It's not hard to understand.

bwahahaha! What a joke.

If you need good quality 50MP images, get the Pentax 645Z. That smokes anything in Canon's lineup.

You do realize his post was facetious right?

 

[neuroanatomist]

For all the "Canon is doing well"/"selling millions of cameras"/"making billions of dollars" folks:

They actually aren't even doing very well financially.

Canon stock is worth less now than it was 5 years ago.

If you invested $100, 5 years ago, in:

The stock market: you'd have $192

Sony Electronics: you'd have $105

Canon: you'd have $83

Since you seem to follow this more closely than I do (I don't own any Canon stock) did your calculation include dividends? Because many of the mutual funds and stocks that I do own have seen flat or declining prices, but that's because they've paid out dividends. If you reinvest those dividends, the actual earnings are much better than the stock prices indicate. So, I'm just curious, does your calculation include the value of dividends reinvested? Just wondering.

You are correct! These calculations assume the dividends are automatically reinvested in the stock. I used google finance.

I'm sure they're supposed to, but the calculator I used gave the same results as you show for Canon and Sony, but showed both with zero dividends to be reinvested. I wonder if Google's calculator is drawing from the same data source for dividend info (which lacks data for Canon and Sony). That same calculator does show dividends and properly calculates the yield for other stocks (ones which I actually own).

Canon's average dividend yield over the last 5 years was 4.1%, Sony's was 1.5% and last year for the first time ever Sony canceled their dividend payment. Given that, your numbers apply only in the case where dividends are not reinvested.

 

[chrysoberyl]

I shoot mostly wildflowers and macro, so this camera is quite intriguing. But no Zeiss macro is available? How much do the adapters impact IQ?

 

[RLPhoto]

Electronic first curtain shutter! Finally.

Does this mean improved sync speeds?