The state of third-party lenses for the RF mount, Canon may be involved

Keep in mind that equivalence works both ways. A 24-105/4 on FF is wider, longer and effectively faster than an EF-S 17-55/2.8 on APS-C.
I understand the DoF equivalence, but does that also apply to ISO? Assuming both are using the same lens and were side by side with the same settings, if an APS-C metered at ISO 400, would a FF meter the same scene at ISO 160? I'm thinking they would be the same ISO but I actually don't know.
 
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I understand the DoF equivalence, but does that also apply to ISO? Assuming both are using the same lens and were side by side with the same settings, if an APS-C metered at ISO 400, would a FF meter the same scene at ISO 160? I'm thinking they would be the same ISO but I actually don't know.
The iso would be the same for both. The iso component of exposure is determined by the shutter speed and the f-number of the lens, and equivalence doesn't come into it. If you have for example on a sunny day a 600mm f/16 on the FF and and a 22mm f/16 on the APS-C and both at 1/100s, the iso would be the same for both, at about 100.
 
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I understand the DoF equivalence, but does that also apply to ISO? Assuming both are using the same lens and were side by side with the same settings, if an APS-C metered at ISO 400, would a FF meter the same scene at ISO 160? I'm thinking they would be the same ISO but I actually don't know.
As @AlanF stated, the metered ISO would be the same. Exposure is determined by light per unit area on the sensor. However, the image noise would be lower on FF, because image noise is determined by total light gathered and a larger sensor gathers more light. So if your scene meters at ISO 400, you could set the FF camera to ISO 1000 and get the same image noise as ISO 400 on APS-C.

Practically, that means more flexibility with FF. You can have lower noise, or you can have the same noise but stop down 1.3-stops if you want more DoF, or use a 1.3-stop faster shutter speed to stop subject movement.

The benefit is mainly in challenging situations. With modern NR algorithms, the difference in image noise between FF and APS-C at ISO 400 is imperceptible. Shooting on a sunny day, my EOS M6II delivers results as good as my R3. At ISO 6400, the noise difference is evident. Shooting moving subjects in low light, FF gives a noticeable advantage.
 
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3rd party lenses 'spoof' a Canon lens code.
That's what I said.
It has caused problems in the past, e.g.:
Yes, I remember turning aberration correction in Canon cameras with Sigma lenses (or some combinations of those) would cause circles to appear, because the the aberrations of the Sigma lenses differ from those of the spoofed Canon lenses.
 
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I shoot Canon for 15 years and got the EOS RP 1,5 years ago. I was going to get the EOS R succesor when it (I guess) comes out next year and keep the RP as second body.

But if the news is true and by then there are still no Tamron or Sigma lenses available on the RF mount, I´m going to sell my entire gear and switch to most probably Sony.

It´s a shame, because I like the Canon ergonomics way better and I like the idea that with canon a photocentric company is a big player in the business and not only huge multinationals like Sony.
 
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I feel like a sucker buying into the RF system and finding that they're blocking the third party suppliers, and also so slow to deliver the primes I actually want, both "street" primes (50/2, 35/2, 28/2, non-IS non-macro tiny and better image) as well as "purposeful-shooting pro" primes (28/1.4, 35/1.4, 85/1.4, 135/1.8) and "halo" primes (35/1, 50/0.7, 135/1.4).

I can't believe that 5 years after buying my R I'm still carrying an EF adapter around. If you had told me that in 1998 I'd be shooting Sony or Nikon. So congratulations, Canon, you tricked me. I acknowledge it. You won. Your customers lost. Your customers got fucked.
You'd buy both a 35mm f/1 and a 50mm f/0.7? Good for you.
 
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Tamron just announced a 70-300 f/4.5-6.3 for the Nikon Z mount, surely a Canon RF version can't be too far behind.

I won’t use Nikon as an example to push bigger companies that have greater market share. Nikon will do anything now to grow their market share. Sony went with working with 3rd party because they were growing their business and required 3rd parties to fill their gaps. Now they’re established but they do have some control over the 3rd parties.

Canon is coming from an established business with a huge market share. They also subject to greater support and quality control as their user demands them to do so. Sony in the other hand was seen as 2nd or 3rd tier product when they started the E mount journey, and many users bought them with low expectation. Now it’s a different case and you can see Sony is a bit more careful with their release by maintaining good quality products.

You can expect Canon to keep their RF mount closed for some time because they’re now trying to establish the MILC business, but I would expect some sort of partnership arrangement in future.

If Canon wants to keep the mount closed, then they should give us more better lower costs lenses options. I simply do not like the non-L RF lens options. I am not impressed with the build quality. Canon should follow Sony's approach where Sony has the GM tier, which is the highest quality tier, but they have G line which is almost as good as the GM but with lower costs price point.
 
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This thread is a microcosm of CanonRumors over the ~decade I've been here. I totally get why some people would be upset (if this is true), but too many tip over from "I hate this/it will affect my decisions going forward" to "this will harm Canon". I've heard that before - year after year - and it never materialised. "Past performance does not guarantee future success" sure, but I always ask, why is this the time your d00m-mongering is correct, when it never was before? I've never had a satisfactory response, I won't expect one now.
 
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This thread is a microcosm of CanonRumors over the ~decade I've been here. I totally get why some people would be upset (if this is true), but too many tip over from "I hate this/it will affect my decisions going forward" to "this will harm Canon". I've heard that before - year after year - and it never materialised. "Past performance does not guarantee future success" sure, but I always ask, why is this the time your d00m-mongering is correct, when it never was before? I've never had a satisfactory response, I won't expect one now.
I’m unaware of any other news coming out regarding this industry that has caused such a negative response. Whether this causes any actual noticeable harm to Canon remains to be seen. What I can say with almost certainty is that if Canon had made an announcement that they are opening up the RF mount to all 3rd parties and that the agreement includes the authority for 3rd parties to build their own teleconverters and no limits on frames per second (which is what Sony do) but in addition lenses will be fully compatible with no affects to AF performance like is the case on emount they would be receiving plenty of praise. Also I plenty of people would be claiming that Canon is about to dominate the mirrorless market and make even Sony a distant 2nd and make Nikon irrelevant.

Nokia used to dominate the phone market but 1 fatal mistake all of their own making destroyed them.
 
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I can see how people might be upset about this. Usually after awhile Canon releases some more affordable lenses though. As long as they do that I don't care at all. Heck we can't play Xbox games on Playstation and vice versa. Plus some 3rd party lenses are trash. Definitely not a bad thing as long as Canon drops a lot more lenses soon or maybe only allow the big names to do RF lenses like Sigma etc.
-Cody McCracken
Kingsport Tn Boudoir Photography
 
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I’m unaware of any other news coming out regarding this industry that has caused such a negative response. Whether this causes any actual noticeable harm to Canon remains to be seen. What I can say with almost certainty is that if Canon had made an announcement that they are opening up the RF mount to all 3rd parties and that the agreement includes the authority for 3rd parties to build their own teleconverters and no limits on frames per second (which is what Sony do) but in addition lenses will be fully compatible with no affects to AF performance like is the case on emount they would be receiving plenty of praise. Also I plenty of people would be claiming that Canon is about to dominate the mirrorless market and make even Sony a distant 2nd and make Nikon irrelevant.

Nokia used to dominate the phone market but 1 fatal mistake all of their own making destroyed them.
I mean, a good proportion of that negative response - in this thread at least - is you yourself. I have no idea the scale of it more generally, especially as it's mostly conjecture.

Regardless, it's worth remembering that criticism/praise ≠ sales gained or lost. Way too soon to know what, if any, effect this might have.

And naysayers have been citing Nokia (and sometimes Kodak) for as long as I've been here too. Nobody denies a dominant company can lose that position - but you have to explain why Canon is the next Nokia now, this time, with more than just "I don't like what they're doing".
 
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I’m unaware
Clearly.

I’m unaware of any other news coming out regarding this industry that has caused such a negative response.
Canon was d00med because Nikon had better low ISO DR. Canon was d00med because they were the last to enter the MILC market. Canon was d00med because when they did enter the MILC market, it was with a camera as terrible as the EOS M. Canon was d00med because Sony had a much better lens selection.

Canon has been d00med on these forums for so many reasons for so long that the mods banned the word d00med. Somehow, despite all of those claims, they continue to dominate the market. Think about that.

As for ‘such a negative response’ there is a thread here with a few negative comments (many of which are yours), a thread on DPR (probably with more negative comments, again probably many of them yours although I admit I have not read the thread so I could be wrong about that), and a couple of articles on photo news sites parroting the facts from one another with little or no commentary. That’s comparatively pathetic as far as negative responses go.

The R5 overheating issue generated far more negative commentary. As did the Sony ‘star eating’ problem.


Whether this causes any actual noticeable harm to Canon remains to be seen.
Noticeable harm as a result of this issue is about as likely as noticeable harm resulting from a butterfly flapping its wings.


What I can say with almost certainty is that if Canon had made an announcement that they are opening up the RF mount to all 3rd parties and that the agreement includes the authority for 3rd parties to build their own teleconverters and no limits on frames per second (which is what Sony do) but in addition lenses will be fully compatible with no affects to AF performance like is the case on emount they would be receiving plenty of praise.
It would’ve received plenty of praise from you at least, but also would not have made any difference to Canon‘s bottom line.

Nokia used to dominate the phone market but 1 fatal mistake all of their own making destroyed them.
And you think this is Canon‘s fatal mistake? LOL. Feel free to keep riding this personal hobby horse of yours, it’s not taking you anywhere.
 
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IAnd naysayers have been citing Nokia (and sometimes Kodak) for as long as I've been here too. Nobody denies a dominant company can lose that position - but you have to explain why Canon is the next Nokia now, this time, with more than just "I don't like what they're doing".
Like many on this forum, @SNJ Ops seems to believe that his/her personal beliefs and desires represent those of the majority. I could be nice and call it hubris, but really it’s just plain foolish.
 
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Like many on this forum, @SNJ Ops seems to believe that his/her personal beliefs and desires represent those of the majority. I could be nice and call it hubris, but really it’s just plain foolish.
I haven’t said that my beliefs and opinions represent the majority. What I have said that the visible response to this news has been negative. You might disagree with that and that’s fine.
I fully acknowledge that for many Canon shooters they couldn’t care less if 3rd party lenses are available on RF or not but many do. What proportion that is I don’t know.

My issue is that many defending Canon seem to not understand that different people have different budgets, needs and desires.

If someone is cross shopping systems and they need/want an f2.8 holy trinity here are 3 possibilities

Canon RF OEM
15-35 - £2389
24-70 - £2359
70-200 - £2729
R6 - £2399 = £9876

Sony OEM
16-35 - £1999
24-70 - £2099
70-200 - £2599
A7IV - £2399 = £9096

So Canon is more expensive by just over £700 even OEM vs OEM

No here is a price by going with all 3rd party lenses, all f2.8 lenses

Sony 3rd party

Sigma 16-28 - £749
Tamron 28-75 - £849
Tamron 70-180 - £1149
A7IV - £2399 = £5149

I personally have nearly all OEM Sony glass but have some 3rd party lenses as well. If someone is on a budget and absolutely can’t afford the OEM glass on any FF platform what are they to do?

£9876 vs £5149
 
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I love all the people who denigrate the lower cost Canon lenses when I know that most, if not all, have never come within 100 yards of these lenses. They are such discerning photographers that I'm surprised I've never seen their work in any galleries.
I own seven of the "cheap" Canon RF lenses. Their AF, IS, and IQ suit me just fine in most instances and do so at reasonable prices. Third-party lenses occasionally fill niches left by the OEM offerings but aren't free of their own positives and negatives. Just like OEM lenses they too have their pluses and minuses. More options are fine, but they are no guarantee of getting something better suited to a particular purpose or user.
 
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I haven’t said that my beliefs and opinions represent the majority. What I have said that the visible response to this news has been negative. You might disagree with that and that’s fine.
I fully acknowledge that for many Canon shooters they couldn’t care less if 3rd party lenses are available on RF or not but many do. What proportion that is I don’t know.

My issue is that many defending Canon seem to not understand that different people have different budgets, needs and desires.

If someone is cross shopping systems and they need/want an f2.8 holy trinity here are 3 possibilities

Canon RF OEM
15-35 - £2389
24-70 - £2359
70-200 - £2729
R6 - £2399 = £9876

Sony OEM
16-35 - £1999
24-70 - £2099
70-200 - £2599
A7IV - £2399 = £9096

So Canon is more expensive by just over £700 even OEM vs OEM

No here is a price by going with all 3rd party lenses, all f2.8 lenses

Sony 3rd party

Sigma 16-28 - £749
Tamron 28-75 - £849
Tamron 70-180 - £1149
A7IV - £2399 = £5149

I personally have nearly all OEM Sony glass but have some 3rd party lenses as well. If someone is on a budget and absolutely can’t afford the OEM glass on any FF platform what are they to do?

£9876 vs £5149

I posted the same thing earlier on but some people are such strong Canon loyalists they would rather spend more for old inferior EF lenses over cheap and better third party options.

If Canon had a very full RF lineup with all the same options as third parties and had actual reasonable pricing it would be somewhat reasonable to block third parties, but sadly then don’t.

There are way more but just some of the third party options that could fill gaps in Canon’s lineup

Sigma 14-24mm F2.8 DN Art
Sigma 16-28mm f/2.8 DN Art
Tamron 17-28mm f/2.8
Sigma 20mm f/1.4 DN Art
Sigma 24mm f/1.4 DN Art
Sigma 35mm f/1.4 DN Art (or Samyang version) or 35mm f/1.2 Art
Samyang AF 50mm f/1.4 UMC II
SIgma 85mm f/1.4 DN Art or Samyang 85mm f/1.4 II
Sigma 70mm or 105mm DN Macro
Samyang AF 135mm f/1.8
Tamron 28-75mm f/2.8 or Sigma 28-70mm f/2.8
Sigma 24-70mm f/2.8 DN Art
Tamron 70-180mm f/2.8, 70-300mm and 150-500mm
 
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