Thoughts From Canon on a Mirrorless Interchangeable Lens Camera

[Bengt Nyman]

Actually, some zooms do out-perform prime lenses.

You mean that some zooms out-perform some prime lenses.

 

[Bengt Nyman]

The way Sony have done it is by reducing the amount of light in by 30%

That is correct on their older Alpha series with TMT (Translucent Mirror Technology), but it's wrong on their NEX series which uses no mirror at all, unless you use the adapter with phase detection AF sensor for older A-mount lenses.

 

[ecka]

Actually, some zooms do out-perform prime lenses.

You mean that some zooms out-perform some prime lenses.

I think it's more like "some primes are really bad and most zooms are even worse than those"

 

[ecka]

I understand the "high IQ camera in a pocket", but I don't understand the "DSLR alternative in a pocket" or "big sensor + small lens, to make it fit in a pocket" (which, I think, isn't possible without IQ sacrifice). Photography is not about putting things in your pockets. Nice small camera bag is a much better way to carry your fragile, expensive, dust and moisture sensitive photographic equipment.
I do like the idea of mirrorless cameras, but I'm against compromising the IQ and ergonomics while making them pocketable. I like to use LiveView for landscapes, portraits and macro (I'm not an action shooter really). Make it FF in a decent size body with all the buttons and wheels + nice vari-angle LCD + big and powerful battery + wireless flash control + some lens adapters - and I'll buy it.

Thankfully, the products are there to keep both camps happy, and there are legitimate uses for both. My GF2 does fit (with a big bulge) in a pants pocket with the 20mm f/1.7, and fits more easily in a jacket or cargo pants pocket. Of course the GF series made some compromises (in ergonomics and later in features) to push the size down. The larger cameras like Panasonics G3 or GH series are more ergonomic.

Well, I doubt that Canon would start making M4/3 cameras
APS-C sensor is a bit larger than M4/3 (like 25% larger image circle) while FF has around 4 times larger sensor area, therefore lenses must be larger too.
M4/3 are nice cameras, but I think that Sony NEX are better. However, I don't find myself comfortable with their controls, menus, accessories and style.

 

[moreorless]

One observation I'd make for the fixed/interchangble lens arguement for mirrorless is the relative body and lens sales of these system. The various m43 systems, The NEX's etc bodies are selling pretty well, not aswell as DSLR's but there in the same ballpark but the same isnt true for lenses at all where Canon, Nikon and to a lesser degree Sony's conventional SLR lenses still dominate.

To me that says that the real drive in the growth of the mirrorless market isnt so much based on users who want speicalists lenses but rather those who want superior IQ to that offer on compacts.

 

[Rocky]

One observation I'd make for the fixed/interchangble lens arguement for mirrorless is the relative body and lens sales of these system. The various m43 systems, The NEX's etc bodies are selling pretty well, not aswell as DSLR's but there in the same ballpark but the same isnt true for lenses at all where Canon, Nikon and to a lesser degree Sony's conventional SLR lenses still dominate.

To me that says that the real drive in the growth of the mirrorless market isnt so much based on users who want speicalists lenses but rather those who want superior IQ to that offer on compacts.

Canon should find ways to get FAST AF (like Nikon V1 ) build an APS-C sensor compact mirrorless with just 2 or 3 small basic lenses and a EF/EF-S adapter. This will get Canon on the map of mirrorless.

 

[moreorless]

Canon should find ways to get FAST AF (like Nikon V1 ) build an APS-C sensor compact mirrorless with just 2 or 3 small basic lenses and a EF/EF-S adapter. This will get Canon on the map of mirrorless.

They could but its a very crowded market where as like I said I see larger sensor fixed lens mirrorless as a fertile and as yet largely untapped market.

Personally I'm supprized it took so long for any of the big guns to move beyond the typical 1/1.7″ sensor thats been in high end compacts/bridges for years considering how intense conmpetision has been. Not only does it potentially offer what I believe the majority of users are after in a smaller/cheaper package but ties the manifacturer down far less than an interchangeble lens system does.

 

[Rocky]

Canon should find ways to get FAST AF (like Nikon V1 ) build an APS-C sensor compact mirrorless with just 2 or 3 small basic lenses and a EF/EF-S adapter. This will get Canon on the map of mirrorless.

They could but its a very crowded market where as like I said I see larger sensor fixed lens mirrorless as a fertile and as yet largely untapped market.

Personally I'm supprized it took so long for any of the big guns to move beyond the typical 1/1.7″ sensor thats been in high end compacts/bridges for years considering how intense conmpetision has been. Not only does it potentially offer what I believe the majority of users are after in a smaller/cheaper package but ties the manifacturer down far less than an interchangeble lens system does.

Canon should "upsize" the S100 give it a 4/3 sensor and throw in FAST AF at the same time. Something like that will satisfy most of the people: large sensor, fast lens, reasonable zoom range, pocketable. Hopefully, the price will be reasonable too.

 

[Bengt Nyman]

I am looking for a high resolution, high ISO, full frame mirrorless DSLE with a high quality EVF. I would prefer to buy it from a company with a wide choice of excellent lenses. I would like to buy it from Canon since I already have a wide choice of their excellent full frame lenses. But first I would like Canon to copy Sony's brilliant Tri-Nav controls and incorporate focus peaking, panorama, HDR and a few goodies of their own.

 

[Caps18]

A live view only 5Dm2 would be interesting. I wonder how much thinner they could make it though?

 

[Bengt Nyman]

A live view only 5Dm2 would be interesting. I wonder how much thinner they could make it though?

If you leave out the full frame mirror you save approximately one inch. If you hook up a pair of projection eye glasses it might make an cool street camera.

 

[ecka]

To me that says that the real drive in the growth of the mirrorless market isnt so much based on users who want speicalists lenses but rather those who want superior IQ to that offer on compacts.

... as well as those who don't need the OVF, mirror, PDAF and extra price for these things they never use.
Not making it an interchangeable lens camera would be a big mistake.

 

[Meh]

A live view only 5Dm2 would be interesting. I wonder how much thinner they could make it though?

If you leave out the full frame mirror you save approximately one inch. If you hook up a pair of projection eye glasses it might make an cool street camera.

If it would still be FF and use an EF mount then wouldn't the flange to sensor distance have to remain the same? I believe it would and, if so, then they could not make the body any thinner by removing the mirror.

 

[ecka]

A live view only 5Dm2 would be interesting. I wonder how much thinner they could make it though?

If you leave out the full frame mirror you save approximately one inch. If you hook up a pair of projection eye glasses it might make an cool street camera.

If it would still be FF and use an EF mount then wouldn't the flange to sensor distance have to remain the same? I believe it would and, if so, then they could not make the body any thinner by removing the mirror.

Yes they could, the EF lens adapter would keep your lens at the right distance.

 

[Meh]

A live view only 5Dm2 would be interesting. I wonder how much thinner they could make it though?

If you leave out the full frame mirror you save approximately one inch. If you hook up a pair of projection eye glasses it might make an cool street camera.

If it would still be FF and use an EF mount then wouldn't the flange to sensor distance have to remain the same? I believe it would and, if so, then they could not make the body any thinner by removing the mirror.

Yes they could, the EF lens adapter would keep your lens at the right distance.

True, good point. Then the real advantage of the thinner body would still be with lenses specifically designed for it that do not need the adapter. When using EF lenses it's a tradeoff between having a thinner body but having to use an adapter. Nice to have choices though.

 

[Bengt Nyman]

A live view only 5Dm2 would be interesting. I wonder how much thinner they could make it though?

If you leave out the full frame mirror you save approximately one inch. If you hook up a pair of projection eye glasses it might make an cool street camera.

If it would still be FF and use an EF mount then wouldn't the flange to sensor distance have to remain the same? I believe it would and, if so, then they could not make the body any thinner by removing the mirror.

Yes they could, the EF lens adapter would keep your lens at the right distance.

True, good point. Then the real advantage of the thinner body would still be with lenses specifically designed for it that do not need the adapter. When using EF lenses it's a tradeoff between having a thinner body but having to use an adapter. Nice to have choices though.

Exactly ! We did it !

 

[Meh]

Exactly ! We did it !

Did what? Sorry, am I missing something?

 

[Bengt Nyman]

Did what? Sorry, am I missing something?

You are not missing anything. I was just celebrating that we reached a consensus.

 

[moreorless]

To me that says that the real drive in the growth of the mirrorless market isnt so much based on users who want speicalists lenses but rather those who want superior IQ to that offer on compacts.

... as well as those who don't need the OVF, mirror, PDAF and extra price for these things they never use.
Not making it an interchangeable lens camera would be a big mistake.

My point is that I think the hype and the reality of the mirrorless market maybe very different. The hype is that mirrorless is replacing the DSLR but I suspect the reality is more than its created a market of its own between DSLR's and compacts. Users who don't nesserally want speicalists lenses but do want the extra image quality/ISO performance of a larger sensor.

A "super G series" could potentially offer those users the image quality they want and the single lens they want with greater range/appature than an interchangeble system in a smaller package.

 

[Bengt Nyman]

A "super G series" ,,, the image quality they want and the single lens they want ,,,

The reason why mirrorless EVF technology will be replacing the SLR in essentially all camera categories is because that technology offers superior performance, size and price. A few action sports photographers will hang on to their mirror boxes until sensor based follow focus outperforms DSLR phase detect. To try to pigeon hole mirrorless into some little camera sub-category is not going to stop its advancement through the camera ranks.
Of course all cameras competing for flexibility and IQ should have interchangeable lenses.
If anything should be pigeon holed into a low IQ camera category it is the fixed lens.