Canon’s global mirrorless market share sits at 41%, with Sony as their “biggest competitor”

[Richard CN]

They actually report it in the appendix to their main report. They combine it with their video camera division. Their sensor division is a different group (Imaging & Sensing Solutions).

You DO realize that Sony's Video camera business is huge, right?

So no, they don't report it because they lump it in with a hugely profitable video camera segment, and mask it. They used to have it separate, now they play musical chairs.

There's a reason for that.

 

[Richard CN]

This doesn't reflect how sensor are made. Factories that can build these image sensors are extremely expensive. Most companies can't do it competitively and innovate at the same time.

Sorry I'm going to say this. but this is all nonsense and really has nothing to do with digital cameras. Much of what Sony and the other fabs do has no bearing on the larger sensors. the large sensors for APS-C and Full frame have entirely different physics, electrical and timing constraints that simply don't happen in smaller sensors.

Canon is ranked 2nd or 3rd in sensor patents behind Sony usually tied to or around the level of Samsung.

They can also outsource the fab if it requires smaller design rules than they are capable but that probably doesn't even happen.

Canon makes its own equipment for CMOS fabrication. Canon has IN HOUSE equipment that can do lithography down to 5nm which is about 8x smaller than any sensor on the market needs. Even the 2nd or 3rd layer stacks down use anything under around 40nm.

Also, there are limitations with a global shutter that are based upon, well, physics.

People have been harping on Sony's advantages of sensors for decades now, and within literally 1 generation of stacked sensors, Canon overtook them.

Canon has two fabs that between then can make over 10 million large sensors per year. They can flex well above what they need to in terms of sensor fabrication - and like i said, most of that equipment is Canon's own.

 

[P-visie]

The R5mII for example is an upgraded version of R5m1 sensor showing essentially the best they can do today.

What is your definition of ‘upgraded’ ?

The R5 sensor is a Front Side Illuminated sensor, the R5 Mk II has a stacked backside illuminated sensor. A completely different design / technology as you should know, since you are claiming expertise of the imaging sensor market.

 

[Anon]

[...] and within literally 1 generation of stacked sensors, Canon overtook them.

Did they though? In what metric?

 

[Richard CN]

Did they though? In what metric?

No one thought that Canon would even do BSI soon let alone stacked. Canon went from FSI to stacked in 1 generation. Sony did it in (checks notes .. 3? 4?)

People were claiming that canon would have to spend a billion dollars on a new fab to catch up to Sony.

Canon's AF is superior and their dynamic range is on par or better.

Considering that Canon also uses dual pixel, which allows for a far greater fine-tuning of AF, at the disadvantage of IQ, they still match or beat Sony.

So Meh? What does Sony bring to the table?

Just because you have marketshare in smartphone sensors doesn't really mean a lot for Full frame and APS-C sensors

 

[jayphotoworks]

Japan is a very different market.

It could be or it could be not. There isn't any data to support or refute that so that is your opinion and yours only.

Over here in Germany I can't even remember when I have last seen a Panasonic camera on a production,
Panasonic has even shut down their professional video HQ in Europe.
Sony - occasionally an A7 variant in low budget productions, mostly hip-hop music videos.
Two single productions with FX6 during the last year.
We see a lot more RED than Sony and no Panasonic. A few Blackmagic Design, BMPCC 4k/6k/6k PRO, Ursa 12K.
And a ton of C70 and R5C. C100/C200 are phasing out, most have upgraded to C300/C500 variants and I expect
the C400 to start rolling well also.

This is anedotal evidence at best which again isn't directly supported by data. I see a drop off with RED in North America with many DOPs opting to shoot on Arri, and I see more Sony FX bodies than than I see anything from Canon.. but I can't make that claim as definitive as I do not have the data points to prove it.

Nearly all their products redord video in some form or another, so.....
Sure, with the exemption of the Ronin 4D not really dedicated cinema video cameras like we all know them.
Low price and enormous quantities. Heck, I have three DJI "cameras"......

Sony and Panasonic have a combined 75% market share in the video camera category and DJI is in 3rd place? Doesn't Canon products also record video? Doesn't really make sense other than Canon not having great market penetration in that category.

Canon is the #1 brand of cameras used in this year's Sundance:

The Cameras of Sundance 2024 Shed Light On How Indie Filmmakers Have Evolved

Discovering what tools festival filmmakers are using is an interesting look into the indie landscape.

nofilmschool.com

Kicked Arri from their 60% share of last year, and RED coming in at 10% from previously nothing.
I think they are doing pretty okay.

I don't see that data on YM cinema for Sundance 2024. Canon has done ok for documentary work, but Canon is weakest in narrative work. This makes sense as Canon does not have a real answer for Sony's Venice in that space. Sony themselves realized they needed a better doc platform and thus released the Burano for that reason.

But let's be honest, Sundance is such a small sliver and not representative of the market in aggregate. I would fall back to say a BCN type report that accounts for most retailer data so it has better coverage overall of everyone from amateurs to pros. That report doesn't support that Canon's video line is doing well at all. Just like you can't refute Canon's lead in camera market share even if Sony wants to come out with a counterclaim that they are the leader in mirrorless with a bunch of fine print behind that counterclaim.

 

[Richard CN]

It could be or it could be not. There isn't any data to support or refute that so that is your opinion and yours only.

This is anedotal evidence at best which again isn't directly supported by data. I see a drop off with RED in North America with many DOPs opting to shoot on Arri, and I see more Sony FX bodies than than I see anything from Canon.. but I can't make that claim as definitive as I do not have the data points to prove it.

Sony and Panasonic have a combined 75% market share in the video camera category and DJI is in 3rd place? Doesn't Canon products also record video? Doesn't really make sense other than Canon not having great market penetration in that category.

Video Cameras? oh without a doubt Panasonic and Sony clean up in that space.

Canon i think all but gave up with Hollywood,etc after spending a ton of money there.

I think they are still up there in terms of broadcast lenses, etc.

 

[jayphotoworks]

Video Cameras? oh without a doubt Panasonic and Sony clean up in that space.

Canon i think all but gave up with Hollywood,etc after spending a ton of money there.

That's my feeling as well.. Canon is doing very well in the ILC/MILC space and their global market share shows that. I would hazard a guess video cameras is a much smaller piece of the pie overall than ILCs anyways and not worth pursuing further if you aren't getting anywhere..

 

[Anon]

No one thought that Canon would even do BSI soon let alone stacked. Canon went from FSI to stacked in 1 generation. Sony did it in (checks notes .. 3? 4?) People were claiming that canon would have to spend a billion dollars on a new fab to catch up to Sony.

Which is laudable.

Canon's AF is superior

People seem divided on this topic based on the first reviews I saw so far

and their dynamic range is on par or better.

So they are pretty much the same or at least close here

So Meh? What does Sony bring to the table?

What I want to say is that Canon improved a lot in a short time, but IMO they did not overtake Sony BSI so far. Not to forget that the Sony sensor is a few years old by now.

Not that it matters so much. A camera is more than its sensor, more than the sum of its parts so to say.

Edit: To underline my point, this is what Jordan Drake (Who is way more experienced in this field than I am) has to say about the R1 sensor:

 

[Richard CN]

A camera is more than its sensor, more than the sum of its parts so to say.

exactly.

which is why Sony sits with 32% and Canon overall is over 50%.

 

[Richard CN]

That's my feeling as well.. Canon is doing very well in the ILC/MILC space and their global market share shows that. I would hazard a guess video cameras is a much smaller piece of the pie overall than ILCs anyways and not worth pursuing further if you aren't getting anywhere..

They even had an office in Hollywood - I think i recall somewhere that it was closed up now.

 

[mpmark]

Canon should just bite the bullet and have Sony manufacture some sensors for them. Between Canon and Sony, Canon clearly makes the best camera bodies and Sony makes better sensors. A Sony sensor in a Canon body would be the best of both worlds.

Completely disagree, Sony sensors are far from perfect, they are lacking in ISO performance, R5 and R3 are far cleaner files then some on Sonys offerings. And with the new releases from canon they've taken that even further. As you should also know not everyone loves Sony or canon colors. I personally hate the baseline for Sony colors.

What you are suggesting, that one company gives in and the sensor market becomes monopolized, you can than throw innovation out the window. Having at least two companies pushes sensor innovation. It's not rocket science

 

[neuroanatomist]

I'm sorry, are you trying to say something here, other than to make yourself look uninformed?

You've managed to do that very effectively, well done!

The point @Richard CR was making is that 'large' sensors (APS-C, FF) are very different than small sensors in terms of the effects of moving the circuitry to the other side of the photodiodes. BSI was developed for smartphones, to enable higher MP counts and/or smaller sensors that delivered similar performance as FSI. Those benefits apply to pixel sizes smaller than ~2 µm and do not scale. All one needs to do is compare the performance of the R5 (FSI) with the Z8 (BSI, stacked) to see that there's no meaningful benefit of BSI for a FF sensor in terms of image quality even in low light.

 

[kakeong]

I believe this is correct : SONY 60% NIKON 35% Canon4% other1%

 

[neuroanatomist]

I believe this is correct : SONY 60% NIKON 35% Canon4% other1%

The topic at hand is camera market share, and in that regard your belief is clearly false and bordering on asinine. So hopefully you are talking about something else.

Correct as a measure of what? Proportion of paid shills? Proportion of rabid fanboys who confuse their own opinions with actual facts?

 

[Richard CN]

I'm sorry, are you trying to say something here, other than to make yourself look uninformed?

Wow. imagine starting off with this and then following it up the way you did.

Sony literally invented the consumer BSI sensor.

No, Omnivision did. There's also no such thing as a "consumer" BSI. it's a BSI sensor developed using your patent rights.

If anyone "invented" it, I'd place my bets on Eric Fossum.

They also entirely invented the BSI stacked sensor.

They held patents and released it first in the market - invented doesn't have any meaning here. Canon, OmniVision, Samsung all had patents in this space.

Canon responding with a copy of this technology

You know this is illegal, right? Canon has thousands of patents on sensor technology. They don't have to "copy" anyone's and they couldn't anyways how sony did their sensors is literally protected by their IP rights.

after an unknown number of years of R&D (in the R3) says nothing about whether they have technical prowess or not. Lastly, Sony literally develops the new technologies for its small sensors first (in phones) before applying them to the large sensors. It's almost as if they have much the same physics.

You really are out of your league here.

This is not to say that Canon can't/doesn't make good cameras, but come on that there is just fanboy levels of coping.

Pot meet kettle.

The methods and means of making stacked sensors for small sensors is 100000% different than it is for large sensors.
there's
a) heat.
b) noise
c) timing lag

Then you have the fact that most smartphone sensors are mounted to the phone and not on floating IBIS platform, adds in even more complexity. Also things such as localized heat sources, etc don't happen on smaller sensors.

All these a small sensor doesn't even have to consider - so yeah.. Physics and stuff.

This is even more an issue with the logic aspect because - usually as design rules shrink so does the die, but in the case of a sensor, the die cannot shrink - which then adds more resistance, and then heat, etc.

Then there's the fact that outside of readout speed, a stacked sensor really doesn't help that much when your pixel size is large. You stack a sensor to optimize the wiring as the pixels wells are already as big as they are going to be because of BSI. Stacked only allows you to optimize speed.

Canon unlike Sony - decides to release something when they feel it's good and serves the intended purpose. They don't usually take 3 generations to get it right.

Also - you do know that Canon commercialized a full frame global shutter sensor around 3 years ago - they just don't think it's worthy of being in a 1 series body. Again, unlike Sony.

 

[Richard CN]

I believe this is correct : SONY 60% NIKON 35% Canon4% other1%

cough syrup can be bad.

 

[kakeong]

After using Canon for 30 years, it’s time to say goodbye to Canon

 

[neuroanatomist]

After using Canon for 30 years, it’s time to say goodbye to Canon

Gee, and you made a new account here less than a week ago just to post some asinine misinformation then tell us that? It's not an airport, you don't need to announce your departure.

 

[EOS 4 Life]

Between Canon and Sony, Canon clearly makes the best camera bodies and Sony makes better sensors.

This is not clear at all.
We will have to see if this turns out to be true but the C400, R1, and R5 II seem to crush Sony in dynamic range.
Nikon owns RED now so I will leave them out of this.
The C400 seems up there with the Venice and the Burano DR is kind of a joke.