Canon USA: The R3 line will continue

No I don't I compared Yen to Yen $544BY to $643BY. Both financials are reported in Yen obviosly. Then when I converted to unit prices I used the Yen to USD coversion rate. Your conversion rate is off by a factor of 10 as the current conversion rate is .0067 not .067 My math is below.

Canon:
$544BY divided by 3.6M units = $151,000Y. $151,000Y X .0067 = $1,012 USD

Sony:
$643BY divided by 2M units = $319,000Y. $319,000Y x .0067 = $2,138 USD
If your a talking in Yen, why do you insist on putting a $ sign in front of the number? There is a symbol for yen ( ¥ ), and it normally goes in front of the number just like the dollar sign. Maybe you should learn how to use alt codes on your keyboard.


Agreed and I noted that in my post above. Again that is part of my whole argument. Sony sells LESS cameras that are MORE expensive. Sony also has a cinema line that is way more expnsive than Canon. The C500mii is $11k and Sony is selling the Venice 2 for $60k and Burano 8K for $25k. And these camera's all relate. So their cinema line goes down to the FX9 and FX6 in the middle around $10k to $6k then all the way down to the FX30 at $1,800. They are heavy beleivers that video is the future.

I hate disillusion you , but Sony has been making Broadcast cameras for over 40 years and Canon has been making Broadcast lenses for a similar amount of time. Neither of those facts has anything to do with Sony suddenly "believing" video is the future for consumer cameras. Sony has more years of experience in pro video cameras than Canon, but they don't make the big lenses. That market belongs to Canon, Fujinon, and Angenieux.

Canon dramatically increased their cinema camera line after they hired Larry Thorpe, who had just retired from Sony and BTW designed the TK44 for RCA before he went to Sony.


I agree the unit mix is off. I'm making ball park assumptions. I mean if you think Sony is selling 100k cameras that cost $50k then good for them. But again this goes back to my point that Sony is focusing on moving the industry toward higher end cameras. The FX30 is an example of that. They effectively have people shooting YouTube content on their cinema line of cameras.

When you are making ballpark assumptions, it is best to not be quite so categorical in your statements.

Sony has now made their entry level "vlogger" camera $1k for the body only. Meanwhile Canon is selling R100's with a kit lens for $400. What happens when the bottom of the market is gone?

Taking this back to the R3 this is why I think they need to make the R3 a flagship beast with high megapixes that cost $6500+. I thought they were going to do that with the R1. They didn't and that's why they are catching flack. There is ALREADY a rumor that they are going to make an R1X that will be the high megapixel beast. That would be fine too but a bit confusing. I think it would be best to differentiate the R1 and R3 line instead of an R1 and R1X line with R3 lost.
There is very little chance that Canon will make an R3 that is more expensive than an R1, but an R1s has historical precedent (1 DS) and the most likely candidate for a high res sensor is an R5s or R5sr. Most folks who would like to shoot high res are very deliberate in their shooting (a necessary attribute to realize the benefit of a high res sensor) and have little need for a ruggedized sports body. Think landscape and architectural. An yes, there will be some birders who would like a high res FF body for better field of view that an R7, but from what I can see on this forum, there are a lot more birders shooting with R5 and R7 bodies than with R3 bodies, so again the R5s wins. Time will tell, but, as I have stated elsewhere, I think the most likely scenario will be an R5s introduced alongside the new RF tilt-shift lenses, since those will likely be among the very few lenses around that will be able to truly complement an 80-100 MP sensor.
 
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The FX3 and FX30 are very different cameras but they share the same body.
I know three people currently using the FX30. Two people are using it as their B cam. Owning 2 FX3 would cost too much so they have the FX30 as their B cam to capture B roll and BTS stuff.

The Third person uses is their main cam primarily for podcasts. They wanted a rugged body that could film for hours. They would've prefered the FX3 but couldn't afford it. The ZV-E1 has the same sensor as the FX3 which normally sells for $1,900 - $2,200, so just a tad bit more than the FX30. However you can't record long as it will overheat. So they are essentially sacraficing quality for functionality.

The 7D and 6D were the same way.
People were expecting the same with the R7 and R6 but Canon decided to go with a smaller body like they did with the 90D.
I do not mind that but the 90D can take a battery grip.
The R7 can't.

The thing I didn't undestand is that while the bodies are slight different in size they are not that differeant in functionality. Again in my example of the FX30 its an apsc camera in a cinema body with fan, 1/4"-20 mounts, hanlde with XLR inputs, etc. The R7 and R6 body are effectively the same with minor differences like a better EVF.

But I see from Dragon's response the goal isn't to have a more functional body but instead a more dense sensor. I was looking at it the other way from video. Imagine if Canon stuck the R7 sensor in the R5C body added a full size hdmi, c-log2 and sold it for $1,800. All the people buying the R5mii could have an awesome B cam and the people who cant afford one now could get the R7 and still be in the Canon ecosystem and yet feel like they have a "cinema" camera.
 
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If your a talking in Yen, why do you insist on putting a $ sign in front of the number? There is a symbol for yen ( ¥ ), and it normally goes in front of the number just like the dollar sign. Maybe you should learn how to use alt codes on your keyboard.
Because I'm a arrogant dumb American that uses the $ to denote curreny like how it is in excel where I work the most. My bad though I thought it was obvious when I posted the financial statements in Yen.
I hate disillusion you , but Sony has been making Broadcast cameras for over 40 years and Canon has been making Broadcast lenses for a similar amount of time. Neither of those facts has anything to do with Sony suddenly "believing" video is the future for consumer cameras. Sony has more years of experience in pro video cameras than Canon, but they don't make the big lenses. That market belongs to Canon, Fujinon, and Angenieux.

Canon dramatically increased their cinema camera line after they hired Larry Thorpe, who had just retired from Sony and BTW designed the TK44 for RCA before he went to Sony.
Got it. But to be fair they are all focusing on video.

From my article earlier:
"In a nutshell, every manufacturer I spoke with said the data tells them that video is where the growth opportunities will be found, and we can expect them to act accordingly."


When you are making ballpark assumptions, it is best to not be quite so categorical in your statements.
We're on a forum. I'm assuming pretty much everything everyone says is their opinion. I posted the factual revenue and then a ballpark unit estimates. I used terms like "around" and "average". I think that peopel here are so pro Canon the dislike from the message of my opinion leads peopel to read in to it what they are used to hearing from people who are simply trolls.

There is very little chance that Canon will make an R3 that is more expensive than an R1, but an R1 DS has historical precedent and the most likely candidate for a high res sensor is an R5s or R5sr. Most folks who would like to shoot high res are very deliberate in their shooting (a necessary attribute to realize the benefit of a high res sensor) and have little need for a ruggedized sports body.

As I mentioned before the rumor is already out that they may be planning a Canon R1X at 80MP. I'm on board with that but again in that lineup I wouldn't understand the R3's place. I don't care what they call it they just want them to make a true flagship.

Think landscape and architectural. An yes, there will be some birders who would like a high res FF body for better field of view that an R7, but from what I can see on this forum, there are a lot more birders shooting with R5 and R7 bodies than with R3 bodies, so again the R5s wins. Time will tell, but, as I have stated elsewhere, I think the most likely scenario will be an R5s introduced alongside the new RF tilt-shift lenses, since those will likely be among the very few lenses around that will be able to truly complement an 80-100 MP sensor.

I actually think 80MP is a bit too much. For a true flagship today all they would need is a 45-50MP sensor that has a faster readout speed than the A1/Z9 with Canon's new autofocus. To most non-Canon people they see the R5mii as the current flagship. If I had to pick between the A1 at $6,500 and the R5mii for $4,300 I'd take the R5miii. The A1 is 4 years old and doesn't even have Sony's AI autofocus. The question becomes what happens when Sony updates its old lineup.
 
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Because I'm a arrogant dumb American that uses the $ to denote curreny like how it is in excel where I work the most. My bad though I thought it was obvious when I posted the financial statements in Yen.

Sorry, but you can't fall back on blaming Excel. Excel has a symbol for every currency in the world. When formatting a cell, select "currency" and the go to the drop down box and pick your symbol :ROFLMAO:

As I mentioned before the rumor is already out that they may be planning a Canon R1X at 80MP. I'm on board with that but again in that lineup I wouldn't understand the R3's place. I don't care what they call it they just want them to make a true flagship.
The current R3 price is only a few dollars more than an R5 II, so it will either stay in the market at that price point as an entry level ruggedized camera or it will be discontinued. Given the sporadic and experimental history of the "3", you may not see another until 2050 and it could be a holoscope (i.e. capture unit for holographic images) ;)


I actually think 80MP is a bit too much. For a true flagship today all they would need is a 45-50MP sensor that has a faster readout speed than the A1/Z9 with Canon's new autofocus. To most non-Canon people they see the R5mii as the current flagship. If I had to pick between the A1 at $6,500 and the R5mii for $4,300 I'd take the R5miii. The A1 is 4 years old and doesn't even have Sony's AI autofocus. The question becomes what happens when Sony updates its old lineup.
You are missing the fact that the biggest market for "pro" (i.e. ruggedized dual grip) bodies is the sports crowd and they do not want a high MP body. If there is a sufficient ancillary market for a similar camera with a high MP sensor, then Canon will build one as they have before. More likely, they will build a high res version of the R5, since that market is almost certainly larger and more bodies means more lens sales. Also, readout speeds much faster than the R5 II are only really useful for flash timing. For 6 mS to be noticeable in video, the pan has to be so fast that it will make the audience seasick. If you truly want to stop airplane propellers or hummingbird wings with no distortion, then global shutter is the only answer, but Canon has clearly decided that it isn't worth giving up a stop of dynamic range, at least for now, and that is probably a wise decision.

As with so many, you are hung up on what you want, or maybe just what you think would be cool. Canon is looking at actual feedback from users that have a checkbook at the ready, and building the cameras they are asking for. In my business experience (in the broadcast equipment business, BTW), that is a very smart strategy. Ignoring your best customers is a pathway to the poorhouse. Copying what the other guys do is also fraught with pitfalls.
 
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You are missing the fact that the biggest market for "pro" (i.e. ruggedized dual grip) bodies is the sports crowd and they do not want a high MP body.
Anecdote of course, but at least Jeff Cable (a Canon ambassador, and his blog posts about the R1 have been featured here), has been pretty consistent about wanting a somewhat higher resolution body (likely in the 30-35 MP range).

Many of the newer DSLR and mirrorless cameras are offering really high resolutions, in the 40MP to 70MP range. For most of my photography, I don't need or even want that type of resolution. But I would love to have the choice to shoot at various resolutions, depending on what I am capturing. I would love to have a camera that would let me shoot anywhere from 20MP to 50MP, and make it use selectable.


The resolution of the Canon R1 is 24.2 megapixels. Although this is adequate for most everything I photograph, I do wish that they had increased the resolution to 30MP or 35MP and then given me a choice to turn that down if I wanted.

 
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Anecdote of course, but at least Jeff Cable (a Canon ambassador, and his blog posts about the R1 have been featured here), has been pretty consistent about wanting a somewhat higher resolution body (likely in the 30-35 MP range).
Jeff also said this in the same blog:

"While most people are asking for higher resolution in their cameras, I am asking for cleaner images with less noise (grain) at higher ISOs. During my briefing with Canon, they told me that this new camera produces a much cleaner image at high ISO. I had a chance to test that a little and found this to be true. I want to do more testing in the future."

His comment on 30-35 MP also included a wish for variable res so he could turn it down. Kind of pie in the sky.

It will be interesting to see what the DR of the R1 and R5 II are once they are shipped. Bill Claff over at https://www.photonstophotos.net/ should have the data posted a few weeks after first shipments.
 
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His comment on 30-35 MP also included a wish for variable res so he could turn it down. Kind of pie in the sky.
I don't think it has to be infinitely variable resolution -- some options would be nice. Variable res RAWs have been implemented by Canon as mRAW and sRAW so the tech definitely exists, and of course all the cameras can output lower resolution JPEGs.
 
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So I am guessing here that these $15,000 rigs currently include an R5 for you to be so sure the users would want 45 MP. With an R1s, they would be $17 ,500 rigs and maybe over the top. Alternatively, these folks are currently using an R3 or R6 and have no experience with 45 MP files and those using laptops to process photos (I am perpetually amazed by how many are using laptops) would be unpleasantly surprised buy the impact on their processing chain caused by 45 MP files. Personally, I would far prefer an R5s with 80 to 100 MP over an R1 with 45 MP, but this is also a very niche market given the small number of lenses that could take advantage of such pixel density. You only have to shoot with an R7 for a while to get an idea which lenses give high pixel density a material advantage and the R7 is only using the center of FF lenses, so the list gets even shorter with a FF of similar density.

I suspect Canon is not that far away from making a very high res camera of some sort, and given the numbers, I suspect an R5s is more likely than an R1s, but then we could also see a 40 MP r7 II since that market is arguably even larger (once again based on the number of base models likely sold). The R7 + RF 200-800 is a remarkably compact package for what it can do and it would be even more effective if the camera body allowed setting a focus distance window and there is no obvious reason why that could not be done.
I use a MacBook Pro with M1 Max and 64gb or ram and have no issues at all with 10,000+ 45mp files.
 
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Sorry, but you can't fall back on blaming Excel. Excel has a symbol for every currency in the world. When formatting a cell, select "currency" and the go to the drop down box and pick your symbol :ROFLMAO:

No I'm blaming it on my own hubris and laziness. If you havent guessed it by now I'm pretty accepting of criticism. ;)

The current R3 price is only a few dollars more than an R5 II, so it will either stay in the market at that price point as an entry level ruggedized camera or it will be discontinued. Given the sporadic and experimental history of the "3", you may not see another until 2050 and it could be a holoscope (i.e. capture unit for holographic images) ;)
I agree with you here in terms of what will happen. I disagree that is should.

You are missing the fact that the biggest market for "pro" (i.e. ruggedized dual grip) bodies is the sports crowd and they do not want a high MP body. If there is a sufficient ancillary market for a similar camera with a high MP sensor, then Canon will build one as they have before. More likely, they will build a high res version of the R5, since that market is almost certainly larger and more bodies means more lens sales.
Again I BELEIVE the market is changing. I personally know several people who own Sony's A1 and they are not "pros" in the sense that you describe. The reality is that they probably could get everything they need in the $3,500 - $4,500 price range but they'd rather spend the extra money to simply have the "best". As I mentioned a high res version of the R5 with a faster readout speed would work here. I was suggesting thats what the R3 should be but I'd be cool with it by any name.

Also, readout speeds much faster than the R5 II are only really useful for flash timing. For 6 mS to be noticeable in video, the pan has to be so fast that it will make the audience seasick. If you truly want to stop airplane propellers or hummingbird wings with no distortion, then global shutter is the only answer, but Canon has clearly decided that it isn't worth giving up a stop of dynamic range, at least for now, and that is probably a wise decision.
Yes us YouTube/Vlogging/Content creators are know to pan the camera quick from time to time. It's not a deal breaker, but in a world where people are constantly trying to differentiate from one another every bit helps. There is noticeable difference between the A1/Z9 at 4 ms and the A9iii's O ms global shutter. With the R5mii sensor somewhere around 6 ms it need to be at least on par with what is alraedy out there (4ms) if they want to claim the top spot. In Canon's ecosystem is it good enough? Sure. But it doesn't look good when others are faster.

As with so many, you are hung up on what you want, or maybe just what you think would be cool. Canon is looking at actual feedback from users that have a checkbook at the ready, and building the cameras they are asking for. In my business experience (in the broadcast equipment business, BTW), that is a very smart strategy. Ignoring your best customers is a pathway to the poorhouse. Copying what the other guys do is also fraught with pitfalls.

I think you are somewhat correct here. My perspective from someone who shoots with predominately people 35 and under is that Canon is listening to its existing customers who are prdominately older and making products for them. People who like and currently shoot Canon like those here see no issue with moves they are making. The people who are not shooting Canon are the ones who scratch their head at a 24MP R1 and have no clue what the R3 is for.

I don't think appealing to the younger generation has to come at the expense of "ignoring your best customers". If Canon made 50MP+, 4 ms or less camera and sold it for $7k would any existing customers get mad? From the outside looking in its PERCEIVED TO BE that the reason Canon didn't make this camera is because they can't currently and Sony/Nikon already have. Which is why people are openly stating in reviewes that they believe Canon is behind in sensor technology. I"M NOT SAYING THAT IS CORRECT. But again that is the perception. And people buy cameras based off perception.

The Nikon Z8 was winning camera of the year awards. It's 45MP and has a faster readout speed than the Sony A1 and is $2,700 cheaper. When that camera came out even the Sony crowd was praising it. I guarantee that with the Z8 and now the Z6miii with its partially stacked sensor for $2,500 Nikon will gain some market share.

See below NIkon has a mount that you can barely even see so that you can shoot Sony lenses on Nikon with full autofocus, programable buttons, aperture ring, etc. Clearly Nikon wants to make it as easy as possible for someone with a Sony body and lenses to pick up the new Z8 or Z6miii, throw their existing lenses and switch over.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CUjt_v65M7k&t=559s

There is a difference between copy others and changing with the times. The first camera I bought was a Nikon because of all the fond memomies as a kid seeing my Dad with a Nikon when they were way bigger than Canon. When I started to get back heavy into it as a hobby I though I was going to buy a Canon as at the time it was my perception Canon was for pros. I ended up shooting Sony because pretty much everyone else in my circle was using Sony. They are all about 10 years younger than me so they have a totally different perspective. So shooting Sony makes it easier to swap glass and accessories and talk gear. This is the main issue for me personally. If my circle switched to Canon then I'd switch with them. Most of my perspective is of how THEY view the gear.

I do it as a hobby since I'm a work from home exectuive. However most these younger people make $80k - $150k per year. I'm not sure if they are "pros" in the sense that you would think. But the differrence between a $4k camera and a $6k camera over 5 years with it used a busienss expense is marginal. And there are tons of younger people who all want to do the same thing. Working for themselves, on their own time, doing something creative. The brands have all acknowledge this group is the future.
 
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I use a MacBook Pro with M1 Max and 64gb or ram and have no issues at all with 10,000+ 45mp files.

I know a few people who shoot on the the A7RV with 61MP files. They defininetly noticed it at first but the laptop is not an issue. Yes everyone uses laptops these days and quite frankly the apple laptops are a better value. If you look at a comparable Mac Mini or Studio its almost worth it for the additional screen. The old days where you need a large desktop are gone. I only know one person that still has an M1 and that's an M1 max. Most people either have an M2's or M3's at this point.

One of the bigger issues was having to upgrade SD cards. If you fill up the buffer it can take about 1 minute to cleare with regular V30 SD cards. Also you cant shoot in all video modes witht he V30 SD cards. So they shoot on a V90 SD cards. Sony tries to push the CF express type A cards but I personally don't know anyone who uses. them so I can't comment.

Sony's cheaper A7IV has 33MP files with the A7RV at 61MP and the A1 at 50MP. At this point 45MP seems pretty middle of the road.
 
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I do it as a hobby since I'm a work from home exectuive. However most these younger people make $80k - $150k per year. I'm not sure if they are "pros" in the sense that you would think.
One of the things recently I've been wondering is how many pro sports photographers are running out and buying these $6k flagships cameras vs how many wealthy hobbyists are buying these.

I get that the pro sports photographers might tell Canon that 24 MP and 40 fps are enough, but given the ever shrinking budgets of news agencies, I wonder how big that market is nowadays.

Meanwhile, I think market of wealthy amateurs who "want the best camera that shoots everything" is not currently being tapped by Canon right now.
 
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One of the bigger issues was having to upgrade SD cards. If you fill up the buffer it can take about 1 minute to cleare with regular V30 SD cards. Also you cant shoot in all video modes witht he V30 SD cards. So they shoot on a V90 SD cards. Sony tries to push the CF express type A cards but I personally don't know anyone who uses. them so I can't comment.
I use SD cards that generally have 270/300 (write/read) speeds and generally do not have much issue with the buffer filling; however, it is largely controlled by my shooting needs/style and the fact I use my R3 for my sports shooting. I have ordered both the R1 and R5m2 and will receive the 5 first most likely. If the r5m2 really fixes the rolling shutter issue and the AF is as good as the R3 I may very well cancel my R1 order because I want higher resolution images than the paltry 24MP that the R3/R1 has. If the R5m2 hits the buffer often, then I will keep the R1 order and use it when it comes out with my R3 as a backup/ second camera with a different lens. I generally shoot HS running events (XC/track) and motorsports (motorcycles). When I shoot for sports sites, I have to shoot everyone, and sometimes they come by in large groups, which is when the buffer becomes an issue.

As for the Mac, I am considering upgrading to the M4 MBP when it comes out later this year as long as the price is not completely ridiculous, Which is most likely will be, but I mainly need additional storage and because Apple sucks with not being able to upgrade storage, I am trapped in that upgrade loop which is what they want.
 
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One of the things recently I've been wondering is how many pro sports photographers are running out and buying these $6k flagships cameras vs how many wealthy hobbyists are buying these.

I get that the pro sports photographers might tell Canon that 24 MP and 40 fps are enough, but given the ever shrinking budgets of news agencies, I wonder how big that market is nowadays.

Meanwhile, I think market of wealthy amateurs who "want the best camera that shoots everything" is not currently being tapped by Canon right now.
I do shoot professionally (as in I get paid to shoot events from time to time) but consider myself more of a really advanced amateur than a "pro" because I do not use photography as my primary means of income. I have ordered the R1 and the R5m2 and plan to cancel the R1 if the r5m2 is good enough in terms of speed and AF capabilities. Had the R1 had a higher resolution, say 36mp, I would not have even bothered ordering the r5m2 and just kept my r5 for my hobby shots of waterfalls and landscapes. I am convinced the primary reason the R1 has such a low resolution is because others would have done the same and Canon wants to sell 2 cameras instead of 1. I am very doubtful it is because the "pros" want the lower resolution.
 
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[…]
As for the Mac, I am considering upgrading to the M4 MBP when it comes out later this year as long as the price is not completely ridiculous, Which is most likely will be, but I mainly need additional storage and because Apple sucks with not being able to upgrade storage, I am trapped in that upgrade loop which is what they want.
As a hobbyist, I’ve been using thunderbolt 4 ssd enclosures, currently a zikedrive enclosure with a 4TB WD ssd inside. It does about 3gbyte/s read and write and most importantly, I can effortlessly move it between my Mac Studio and my wifes M1 Air. As a bonus, you get to become opinionated about usb-c cables!

My laptop is an ‘old’ Intel Mac, I really want to upgrade it, but I don’t want to allocate money away from the photo hobby :)
 
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But I see from Dragon's response the goal isn't to have a more functional body but instead a more dense sensor. I was looking at it the other way from video. Imagine if Canon stuck the R7 sensor in the R5C body added a full size hdmi, c-log2 and sold it for $1,800. All the people buying the R5mii could have an awesome B cam and the people who cant afford one now could get the R7 and still be in the Canon ecosystem and yet feel like they have a "cinema" camera.
Feel like, sure, but the FX3 and FX30 meet the bare minimum definition of "cinema camera".
That was mostly because of features added later to get Neflix approval and because people who wanted to use them as cinema cameras complained.
IMHO they sell so well because even though they are called "cinema cameras", most are not using them as cinema cameras.
The R5 II is the closest Canon has to a camera like that and I hope it is the start of a trend.
As long as they keep making real cinema cameras like the R5 C and C70.
 
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Anecdote of course, but at least Jeff Cable (a Canon ambassador, and his blog posts about the R1 have been featured here), has been pretty consistent about wanting a somewhat higher resolution body (likely in the 30-35 MP range).
Jeff Cable works for Team USA.
He does not work for Getty and is not the target market for the R1.
I hope that he does get his wish in the R3 II but the R5 II was made for someone like him.
He already uses an R5.
 
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I get that the pro sports photographers might tell Canon that 24 MP and 40 fps are enough, but given the ever shrinking budgets of news agencies, I wonder how big that market is nowadays.
That is an excellent point.
Sony is also bending over backward to please this market with the a9 III.
Nikon does not have many contracts and seems to have abandoned that market.
Sony makes a huge announcement whenever they secure a new agency contract.
However, it is just a few photographer on each contract.
The cameras are priced high enough so I doubt either Canon or Sony is losing money.
The contracts also let them know how many to build.
 
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