Canon USA: The R3 line will continue

[CJaurelius]

You pay no attention to what others have to say and just keep returning to your talking point, whatever it is. Very tiring.

You are doing the same, we disagree.

 

[frankchn]

In terms of CMOS sensor markets, the ILC and security camera business dwarfed by smartphones.

Each iPhone 15 Pro Max sold has 4 Sony sensors in them (Primary camera: IMX803, Ultrawide: IMX633, Telephoto: IMX913, Selfie: IMX714) and Apple is selling a lot more of those than the entire ILC market. The 15 Pro, and regular 15 and 15 Plus phones all have Sony sensors as well.

It shows in Sony's segment results. In the year to March 2024, Sony Imaging & Sensing Solutions (their sensor division) did 1,602B JPY in sales. Canon, Nikon, Sony, and Fujifilm's digital still + video camera businesses together did 1,786B JPY in the same period (this would include lenses and other accessories as well).

In other words, Sony's ISS group is almost as big as the entire Japanese digital still and video camera industry put together in terms of revenue.

 

[Dragon]

Exactly. You do realize that CMOS sensors are used in a ton of applications. First let's go to Canon's website so you can see that they would like to compete in all of these applications.

https://canon-cmos-sensors.com/applications/#:~:text=Canon's%20CMOS%20sensors%20are%20ideal%20vision%20solutions%20for%3A&text=Advanced%20driver%20assistance%20systems%20(ADAS,Automated%20food%20production



Now let's look at the actual market share with Sony in the lead at 42% and Canon one of the smallest players in the market at 1%.

View attachment 218774

Now let's look at how much of the CMOS market is focused on cameras (Consumer).

View attachment 218776

The market for CMOS sensors in cameras is expected to DECREASE while the market for CMOS sensors in pretty much everything else is expected to grow.



The future of CMOS sensors is clearly not going to be focused on camreas. This has been my point. while people are worried about Canon's market share in camera bodies sold the world is moving in a direction where cameras are becoming a niche product.

https://ymcinema.com/2023/08/07/sony-dominates-the-cmos-image-sensor-world-by-far/

Yes, but that report still is the commercial market for bare sensors and almost certainly does not include Canon's own use of their own sensors, so the market share numbers are misleading, particularly for large sensors for cameras. The Alexa market is tiny in numbers.

 

[frankchn]

Yes, but that report still is the commercial market for bare sensors and almost certainly does not include Canon's own use of their own sensors, so the market share numbers are misleading, particularly for large sensors for cameras. The Alexa market is tiny in numbers.

Yeah it likely doesn’t include intra-company sales in both Canon and Sony.

That said, even if you assume that Canon’s intra-company sales is the size of the entire consumer sector ($900M+ — note total Canon Imaging revenue last year was $5.9B, so basically assuming 1/6th of all Imaging [incl. cameras, video cameras, security cameras, lenses, accessories, services] revenue is attributable to sensors), that would put Canon at around $1.1B, or about 5% of the global sensor market.

 

[frankchn]

Sony’s intra-company sensor sales was ~98B JPY (670M USD) last year, so 900M USD in intra-company sales for Canon sensors seems like it is in the right ballpark, or maybe even a little high.

 

[EOS 4 Life]

Again no. It's not about 24MP being enough or not, its about choice. Sony gives you the A9III at 24MP if absolue speed and fps is the most important criteria. If you want megapixels you can get 50MP with still a high sensor readout of 4 ms. And if you want 61MP and aren't shooting fast subjects you can sacrafice readout speed all the way down to 31 ms but again get 61MP.

Canon gives us the choice of the R1 and R5 II.
Are people just upset that it does not cost as much as the a1?
The R5 II is a better all-around camera for less money.

You are correct that Canon has nothing to compete with the a7R V yet.
I am still hoping for an R5 S.
Canon chose the R5 II to be an a1 and Z 8 competitor.
I think that was the right choice but they still need to compete with the a7R V and the future Z 7 III.

 

[CJaurelius]

Yes, but that report still is the commercial market for bare sensors and almost certainly does not include Canon's own use of their own sensors, so the market share numbers are misleading, particularly for large sensors for cameras. The Alexa market is tiny in numbers.

Yeah it likely doesn’t include intra-company sales in both Canon and Sony.

This is the market share based on revenue, intra company revenue is included. The second biggest market share holder is Samsung which primiarly provides sensors for its own smartphones.

The Camera CMOS sensor market is 4% of the total market and is expected to DECREASE to 3% even though the broader market is growing. And this is the issue. Take a company like Panasonic that also makes their own sensors and is behind Canon. It's hard to pour R&D into a market that is flat and may be likely to decrease. Meanwhile companies like Sony and Samsung can leverage the use of a BSI CMOS sensor in not only cameras but automotives, industrial, medical and security.

This was the reason I suggested earlier that Canon should just use Sony sensors in their bodies. Sony already sells sensors to Canon for other uses. I don't think Sony really cares about the the camera market except for the fact that it allows them to create and sell more sensors. Case in point in that the new NIkon's have Sony sensors in them. Why would they sell Sony sensors to Nikon who will more than likely take market share from them? Because to them the sensor market IS their market share.

The way I see it, Canon makes the best camera bodies. Sony makes the most sensors. Canon could have made the R5mii and R1 with their own sensor and then made a third model with a Sony sensor. I think there will be a lot of moves like this in the future as the market stays flat. Right now the growth is coming from increasing the price per unit not sellilng a lot more units. You can only increase prices so much. The only way to get a bigger piece of the pie will be from each other. Nikon buying RED for example.

As a kid I remember playing Sonic on SEGA hardware and arguing over whether SEGA or Nintendo was the best. Fast forward to today and my kids play Sonic on Microsoft hardware and stream Sonic movies and cartoons on Netflix.

 

[SilverBox]

I think AF wise the big three are probably fairly similar nowadays -- without using cameras from all 3 brands in a head to head it will be hard to tell, and even then each AF system will have its specific quirks. I expect I'll get better AF performance out of my R3 than an A1 or a Z9, and that might well be because I am used to how the R3's AF system behaves.

As a digital tech I have used cameras from all 3 brands, cameras from pretty much every brand, and I can tell you Sony has the best autofocus system on the market and has for many years. The R3 is great, and I would say the Z9 is on par, but the thing about the Sony is that both Canon and Nikon have been playing catch up there. And while the A1 is a great camera, the groundbreaking AF came first in the lower end bodies like the A7s and A7r. Sony did an excellent job of doing a middle out approach to their entry into the market that generated a lot of excitement.

I love my R3, and I am definitely interested in the improvements in the R1, but it is had for me to make the argument that its wroth the upgrade.

 

[CJaurelius]

Canon gives us the choice of the R1 and R5 II.
Are people just upset that it does not cost as much as the a1?
The R5 II is a better all-around camera for less money.

I agree with this and have STATED this MULTIPE times. The R5mii is 90% of the A1 at 65% of the cost. I've been signing the praise of the R5mii over and over. They should've beefed the R5mii up a little bit more and made it the flaghip for $6k+ and then they could've shrank it down for the lower price like the Z9/Z8.

You are correct that Canon has nothing to compete with the a7R V yet.
I am still hoping for an R5 S.

And the A7RV is over a year and a half old. They have already dropped that sensor in the cheaper A7CR.

Canon chose the R5 II to be an a1 and Z 8 competitor.
I think that was the right choice but they still need to compete with the a7R V and the future Z 7 III.

My issue with this is that these camera are on a roughly 4 year timeline. The R5mii may compete with the A1 today but it is a 4 year old camera. I was expecting something much better than the A1 not just a cheaper version of it. And here is why. The Sony A7Siii and A1 are almost 4 years old. So they likely have new versions of both these camera coming within a year.

The R5mii and the Nikon Z8 are in direction competion both with 45MP sensors. The Nikon sensor readout speed it 4 ms and the R5mii readout speed is 6 ms. The R5mii has BETTER autofoucs. However the Nikon Z8 has the same sensor as the Nikon Z9. It's a SONY sensor and it was released over 2 AND A HALF YEARS AGO. And Sony already has better AI autofocus than Nikon. Sony can alreaqdy make a Z8/R5mii competitor with OLD PARTS.

More than likely Sony will make an R5mii/Z8 competitor in the $4k+ price range within a year so that it will claim the top spot (spec wise) for the majority of the lifecycle of those cameras. They'll then release a new A1 in the $6,500+ price range. Knowing Sony they'll probably push the price up to $7k. It will be overkill for pretty much everybody but will allow them to market as that they have the best tech. Then for the next 3 years we'll be waiting for Canon to respond to the A1ii or whatever they call it.

 

[CJaurelius]

As a digital tech I have used cameras from all 3 brands, cameras from pretty much every brand, and I can tell you Sony has the best autofocus system on the market and has for many years. The R3 is great, and I would say the Z9 is on par, but the thing about the Sony is that both Canon and Nikon have been playing catch up there. And while the A1 is a great camera, the groundbreaking AF came first in the lower end bodies like the A7s and A7r. Sony did an excellent job of doing a middle out approach to their entry into the market that generated a lot of excitement.

I love my R3, and I am definitely interested in the improvements in the R1, but it is had for me to make the argument that its wroth the upgrade.

Yes, Sony didn't come out with it's AI proccessing unit chip until after the A1 was released and therefore they can't go back and add it to the A1. What they did do it put that chip in pretty much every camera moving forward. So even though their 4 year old flagship doesn't have this upgraded AI autofocus you can get it in cheaper new cameras like apsc A6700 for $1,400.

This is what the Sony people complain about. They buy a full frame camera for $6,500 only to see newer featrure in $1,400 apsc camera just a few years later. On top of that they don't upgrade the older cameras with firmware updates. Sony instead seems focused on pushing out new tech as fast as they can in as many newer bodies as they can. The cinema line FX3 sensor is also in the A7Siii and the ZV-E1. The only one with the new AI processing unit is the cheapest one, the ZV-E1.

 

[SilverBox]

What would get me a lot more excited about the R5ii would be a grip that takes the LPE19 batteries. Once you go to the big bodies its hard to go back, the ergonomics, stability, and battery life is just better.

This kind of market differentiation has always been and issue between Canon and its user base. Canon has said time and time again that they do not consider the 5 series to be professional, despite basically every user thinking of it as such. And if you are a 1/3 series user it's hard to go back down because the feature set is quite nice. This is where the schism always happens, Canon markets the 1 series almost entirely to sports photographers, and studio photographers either begrudgingly use them because they like the body and don't need the mpex, or they begrudgingly use the R5 (or GFX) in studio and R3 in the field. The R1 has a lot of major improvements over the R3, and the R5ii is a huge upgrade over the R5, but neither of these cameras solves the issue of this schism.

I don't think many shooters need a camera that has more mpex than the R5, that is an argument for market competition with Sony. But pros do want the robustness of the 1/3 series with higher mpex just as they wanted the 1Ds years ago, and that is an issue that hasn't been addressed in the 12 years since Canon condensed the 1 series with the 1Dx

 

[neuroanatomist]

Canon chose the R5 II to be an a1 and Z 8 competitor.
I think that was the right choice but they still need to compete with the a7R V and the future Z 7 III.

Did/do they? Who is the primary target market for the R5II, in your opinion? Is it owners of earlier Nikon and Sony bodies, or is it owners of earlier Canon bodies with a set of readily adaptable EF lenses?

 

[SilverBox]

Did/do they? Who is the primary target market for the R5II, in your opinion? Is it owners of earlier Nikon and Sony bodies, or is it owners of earlier Canon bodies with a set of readily adaptable EF lenses?

Just my 2¢ but I think the main target is R5 owners, older Canon body owners, and new users, in that order. No one is really switching brands much anymore that I see. A lot of the pros I know who now shoot Sony were Nikon users who were upset that Nikon was so slow to move to the mirrorless market and couldn't wait for them to play catchup. I have been in Canon my entire life, I would never go to Sony buy I could see moving to Nikon if something revolutionary happened, but really I think that if someone *is* switching brands from the Big 3 they are moving to GFX because if they are unhappy with some factor, they are going medium format with basically no price penalty, and you can adapt pretty much every legacy lens to GFX.

 

[neuroanatomist]

Just my 2¢ but I think the main target is R5 owners, older Canon body owners, and new users, in that order. No one is really switching brands much anymore that I see.

That is my feeling as well, except I would reverse the first two. There are a LOT of 5-series DSLR owners who are now ready for an upgrade since their cameras are 5-10 years old.

People on this forum are a self-selected group that follows camera developments avidly, but we're not representative of the broader camera-buying market. YouTube (p)reviewers thrive on comparing one brand to another but the data show that switching overall is not very common, and it seems very likely that the switching that does occur is even less frequent among users of high-end gear with the significant investment in lenses that typically entails.

I find it amusing that people here place such stock in comparisons between brands and predict doom for Canon because another brand offers more MP or some other feature and are thus 'not competitive'. Canon has no real need to compete with Nikon and Sony, they already sell more cameras than both of them combined. Canon's actual competition is the Canon camera that most people already have in their hands.

 

[Dragon]

This is the market share based on revenue, intra company revenue is included. The second biggest market share holder is Samsung which primiarly provides sensors for its own smartphones.

Neither Canon nor Samsung break out that information, so if the report claims to include intra-company transfers, the data is a best a WAG.

 

[EOS 4 Life]

I don't think Sony really cares about the the camera market except for the fact that it allows them to create and sell more sensors.

They certainly do.
Sony has mostly taken market share from their own customers.
I am really not sure why the other camera companies still use Sony sensors.
It is only working out for Nikon and Fuji right now.
Canon has held up the best against Sony and they are the only ones not using Sony sensors.
RED has sensor technology behind what Sony has.
Nikon should be trying to phase Sony out.

 

[EOS 4 Life]

This is what the Sony people complain about.

People complain about everything.
I visit forums for all the brands and the comments are mostly complaints.
Sony forums are unique in that they still manage to have a superiority complex while they hate on their own brand.

 

[EOS 4 Life]

This is the market share based on revenue, intra company revenue is included. The second biggest market share holder is Samsung which primiarly provides sensors for its own smartphones.

Sony primarily provides sensors for smartphones as well.
Sony dominates that market.
Samsung is a distant second.
Canon is trying to break in but they are something like 1% of the market.
That is still a lot of money though.

 

[frankchn]

They certainly do.
Sony has mostly taken market share from their own customers.
I am really not sure why the other camera companies still use Sony sensors.
It is only working out for Nikon and Fuji right now.
Canon has held up the best against Sony and they are the only ones not using Sony sensors.
RED has sensor technology behind what Sony has.
Nikon should be trying to phase Sony out.

I think Sony might be the only company offering APS-C and FF sensors at a competitive price currently because it seems like everyone from Nikon to Fujifilm to Panasonic to Phase One to Leica to Hasselblad to OM System uses Sony sensors right now. If there are other suppliers I don’t think this kind of market cornering happens.

The only company I can think of that I am not sure if they are using Sony sensors besides Canon is Pentax/Ricoh. They might well be, I just haven’t kept up with the news there.

 

[Quack]

...

This kind of market differentiation has always been and issue between Canon and its user base. Canon has said time and time again that they do not consider the 5 series to be professional, despite basically every user thinking of it as such.

I have no idea why you, or others, think Canon does not consider the 5 series as pro cameras...

Here is the first sentence from their recent press release...

MELVILLE, N.Y., July 17, 2024 — Canon U.S.A., Inc., a leader in digital imaging solutions, today launched two new professional full-frame mirrorless cameras, the EOS R1 and EOS R5 Mark II.

From the R5 press release...

The EOS R5 is a camera designed for professional applications featuring a new 45-megapixel full-frame CMOS sensor and uncropped 8K video recording up to 29.97 fps.

From the Canon 5D IV press release...

MELVILLE, N.Y., August 25, 2016 – Canon U.S.A., Inc., a leader in digital imaging solutions, is proud to announce the EOS 5D Mark IV DSLR camera, the next generation of the popular and versatile 5D series of Canon professional DSLR cameras.