Crop Factor Change for 4K on Canon EOS 5D Mark IV Included in Coming Update & More

[Mancubus]

Way to go Canon, now do something to cancel the AA filter and I'll go buy my 5D4 in the same week.

 

[Tugela]

So if true: it's also a huge score for the 4K crowd- all of our complaining worked and paid off. For all the naysayers who called the 4K crowd "whiners" and told them to shut up because Canon is profitable and knows what they're doing- this is a little proof that Canon does read the forum boards, that the little 4K crusade worked, and that Canon ultimately decided they agree with us. Even if it's only to protect the 5DIV from being cannibalized by the 6DII, it proves they listened and agreed on what video features were lacking. For those of us who haven't jumped on board with the new 5D, it's added incentive and sales will only increase because of it. Like it or not, these days, video matters.

Strictly speaking, this doesn't prove that assertion at all. We don't know why they've decided to do this (if it comes true). Several competing hypotheses have been expressed - it could be long-term repositioning of the lines (e.g. to differentiate more with the 6D2), it could be due to lacklustre sales, it could be due to direct feedback from consumers - especially big customers (i.e. not individuals). If you want to believe that whining on forums is the main decision maker at major companies, then you're free to do so, but it doesn't sound the most convincing one to me.

PS "crusade"? Really?? :

More likely it's due to overall internet "whining," not just on this forum. But interesting that the issues being addressed mirrored all the ones discussed here, no?

P.S.
crusade
[kroo-seyd]
3. any vigorous, aggressive movement for the defense or advancement of an idea, cause, etc.:

You're a hater for no reason. The 5D Mark IV needed this with a lot of people jumping ship to Sony and the new Panasonic GH5. I don't care what Amazon sales say. Canon knew something was up; something BIG that was negative for them so they had to do this when they rarely do.

When this is in place, the 5D Mark IV is respectable and very competitive. I like it.

They are probably not that concerned about the GH5, since that occupies a different market space than the 5D cameras. The GH5 is more of a competitor to the Cx00 cameras and the XC series. The camera they will really be concerned about will be Sony's a9 or a7R3, when those show up, which is rumored to be very soon. Those particular cameras will directly challenge the 5D market aggressively, and THAT is what Canon are worried about.

 

[Tugela]

I remember in the Lens Rentals teardown of the 5d4, that Roger said there was a lot of free space in the body.
Perhaps now we know why.

That does not make sense. Canon already had more advanced processors in the form of the Digic 7, but did not include it in the 5D4. The Digic 7 is capable of hardware encoding 4K, but it requires active cooling to keep the thermals in check. If it was as simple as adding a heatsink and if the 5D4 had the space to do that, they would have used the Digic 7 in the first place. Instead, they used the older Digic 6 and the software based mpeg solution for 4K video, which is a half-assed stop gap measure to give the camera some 4K features.

All that this new rumor means (if it is true) is that there is some very competitive camera from some other manufacturer on the immediate horizon that will likely take significant market share from the 5D4, and as a result Canon are trying to push the 5D4 as far as they can beyond it's original design limitations. It reeks of desperation.

 

[davidhfe]

I remember in the Lens Rentals teardown of the 5d4, that Roger said there was a lot of free space in the body.
Perhaps now we know why.

That does not make sense. Canon already had more advanced processors in the form of the Digic 7, but did not include it in the 5D4. The Digic 7 is capable of hardware encoding 4K, but it requires active cooling to keep the thermals in check. If it was as simple as adding a heatsink and if the 5D4 had the space to do that, they would have used the Digic 7 in the first place. Instead, they used the older Digic 6 and the software based mpeg solution for 4K video, which is a half-assed stop gap measure to give the camera some 4K features.

I think you underestimate Canon's engineering timelines. The decision to use Digic 6+ was probably made 3 years ago. Usually, this conservative approach to engineering works because it leads to solid, dependable professional products.

This time around, they underestimated the importance and adoption rate of 4K and got burned.

(Also minor quibble, "active cooling" usually refers to a fan, which does not seem to be the case in the 80D?)

 

[bsbeamer]

this was just announced:
http://learn.usa.canon.com/resources/articles/2017/cinema-eos-video-firmware-update.shtml

Free Firmware for Select Canon Video and Cinema Cameras
Free Firmware Announcement for Select Canon Cinema EOS, Professional Video and Multi-Purpose cameras: EOS C700, EOS C100 Mark II, EOS C100 DAF, EOS C100, XC10, XC15, ME20F-SH, and ME200S-SH

does this make the 5D4 firmware more believable?

 

[crazyrunner33]

Well, I'm now holding off on the purchase of the GH5. It'd be nice to get back to having the same body for photos and videos instead of hauling the 5D MKIII and GH4. I'll wait until the real world results come in. I love shooting 4K for 1080 final delivery, it allows me to make subtle zooms and pans in post, along with cutting in and out of closeups. But the current 5D Mark IV 4K footage is a bit too muddy for cutting in and out in post.

 

[scyrene]

The 5D Mark IV is still competitive (and a good camera), but it pales to the spec sheet of the GH5.

If this rumor is true, the GH5 may be one of the bigger reasons this update is on the way now. If you look at the GH3 through GH5, it's been a crop evolution continually improving image quality and using more "full frame" especially if you use an adapter or focal reducer. Factoring in the Sony camera sales, it's clear Canon is missing out on market share. Also factoring the shrinking camera market in general (DSLR and mirrorless) this may be an attempt to take back some of the remaining market. For Canon's sake, I hope this rumor is true.

Doesn't a lot of this discussion rely on the assumption that this Panasonic model is a competitor? While it might make a better choice for some users, I doubt Canon sees it that way. They probably sell orders of magnitude more 5D cameras than Panasonic models... Where's Neuro with the stats?!

 

[Sharlin]

Doesn't a lot of this discussion rely on the assumption that this Panasonic model is a competitor? While it might make a better choice for some users, I doubt Canon sees it that way. They probably sell orders of magnitude more 5D cameras than Panasonic models... Where's Neuro with the stats?!

Yeah. I find it very difficult to believe that Canon would consider an m4/3 camera, however awesome, a serious competitor to the 5D4.

 

[jayphotoworks]

Doesn't a lot of this discussion rely on the assumption that this Panasonic model is a competitor? While it might make a better choice for some users, I doubt Canon sees it that way. They probably sell orders of magnitude more 5D cameras than Panasonic models... Where's Neuro with the stats?!

Yeah. I find it very difficult to believe that Canon would consider an m4/3 camera, however awesome, a serious competitor to the 5D4.

It depends if you are considering this from a stills or video perspective. The GH series is much further along for video production work than the 5D4. I rarely see anyone shoot video work with a 5D series body anymore. I see a ton of Sony primarily and to a lesser extent Panasonic.

 

[Helevitia]

Meanwhile, I continue to enjoy my 5DM4 ;D

I'm on, like, my third bucket of popcorn for this thread.

 

[Mikehit]

The camera they will really be concerned about will be Sony's a9 or a7R3, when those show up, which is rumored to be very soon. Those particular cameras will directly challenge the 5D market aggressively, and THAT is what Canon are worried about.

Every iteration of the Sony lines for the last 5 years, people have stood on the sidelines and said 'the next Sony will slay this under-specified crippled Canon'..only to find the Sony is either deficient or just as crippled as the Canon it was going to displace. I have no reason to think the next one will be any different.
Sony made a massive jump with the A7R and (like Olympus and their E-M5/E-M1) have found it had to repeat that jump and Canon just keeps chugging up behind them.
If Aesop were alive today he would perhaps amend his fable...

 

[scyrene]

Doesn't a lot of this discussion rely on the assumption that this Panasonic model is a competitor? While it might make a better choice for some users, I doubt Canon sees it that way. They probably sell orders of magnitude more 5D cameras than Panasonic models... Where's Neuro with the stats?!

Yeah. I find it very difficult to believe that Canon would consider an m4/3 camera, however awesome, a serious competitor to the 5D4.

It depends if you are considering this from a stills or video perspective. The GH series is much further along for video production work than the 5D4. I rarely see anyone shoot video work with a 5D series body anymore. I see a ton of Sony primarily and to a lesser extent Panasonic.

I thought the prevailing wisdom was, Canon took the success of the 5DII and created the Cinema line, and that they don't consider regular DSLRs (the 1DC exempted) as serious movie machines? In that sense, the 5D4 does not compete with those other cameras (in Canon's view).

 

[syder]

So if true: it's also a huge score for the 4K crowd- all of our complaining worked and paid off. For all the naysayers who called the 4K crowd "whiners" and told them to shut up because Canon is profitable and knows what they're doing- this is a little proof that Canon does read the forum boards, that the little 4K crusade worked, and that Canon ultimately decided they agree with us. Even if it's only to protect the 5DIV from being cannibalized by the 6DII, it proves they listened and agreed on what video features were lacking. For those of us who haven't jumped on board with the new 5D, it's added incentive and sales will only increase because of it. Like it or not, these days, video matters.

Strictly speaking, this doesn't prove that assertion at all. We don't know why they've decided to do this (if it comes true). Several competing hypotheses have been expressed - it could be long-term repositioning of the lines (e.g. to differentiate more with the 6D2), it could be due to lacklustre sales, it could be due to direct feedback from consumers - especially big customers (i.e. not individuals). If you want to believe that whining on forums is the main decision maker at major companies, then you're free to do so, but it doesn't sound the most convincing one to me.

PS "crusade"? Really?? :

More likely it's due to overall internet "whining," not just on this forum. But interesting that the issues being addressed mirrored all the ones discussed here, no?

P.S.
crusade
[kroo-seyd]
3. any vigorous, aggressive movement for the defense or advancement of an idea, cause, etc.:

You're a hater for no reason. The 5D Mark IV needed this with a lot of people jumping ship to Sony and the new Panasonic GH5. I don't care what Amazon sales say. Canon knew something was up; something BIG that was negative for them so they had to do this when they rarely do.

When this is in place, the 5D Mark IV is respectable and very competitive. I like it.

They are probably not that concerned about the GH5, since that occupies a different market space than the 5D cameras. The GH5 is more of a competitor to the Cx00 cameras and the XC series. The camera they will really be concerned about will be Sony's a9 or a7R3, when those show up, which is rumored to be very soon. Those particular cameras will directly challenge the 5D market aggressively, and THAT is what Canon are worried about.

Um... No. Sorry but no one has a serious decision to make as to whether to buy a 12K C300ii or a 2K GH5. The GH4/5 is (understandably) loved by budget conscious independents making work for the web. The Sony A7 is in much the same place, aside from a few people using the A7S as a specialist low light camera. The Canon cinema cameras (and their Sony compeitors such as the FS7) are professional tools used for tv/commercials etc.

The 5D4 is still mainly a stills camera used by wedding/event photographers that can do video when needed, and with DPAF/touchscreen is a much better tool for some run and gun FF video than a lot of other options (such as the A7 cameras). It isn't primarily a video camera, which is why is suffers when compared to the GH5 which is basically a video camera without a bunch of fairly essential video features like ND filters, XLRs and half decent ergonomics.

This upgrade sounds like bs to me to be honest. It'd make the 5D4 more appealing as a video camera, but it's hard to see it ever really appealing as a video camera because DSLRs just dont make better video cameras than actual video cameras, and the 5D4 is also not going to be cheap enough to compete with the GH5 for the really budget conscious web filmmaker crowd.

A C100mkiii that does 4K using something like the specs outlined here would make much more sense as a direct competitor to the FS5 at the bottom end of the cinema camera market.

 

[cpreston]

A couple thoughts I've had as to why Canon might do this upgrade assuming this might be true.

I was really surprised that the C100 III is not being announced at NAB. Perhaps the Cinema team was working on upgrading the 5D instead.

While video may be a small slice of the DSLR market, my guess is that videographers tend to buy more lenses than your average shooter. The 1DC sold horribly, but its owners made up for it in lens purchases. Canon is releasing more cinema lenses such as the 18-80 t/4.4 CN-E and want to build up their market.

The 1DX II will not get any advanced video futures. The 1DX is considered Canon's "pro" DSLR and they don't want to annoy real photographers.

Every review of Canon's DSLRs mentions the poor video. Perhaps these reviews have made it up to Canon management.

I firmly believe that Canon's past market research showed that the average DSLR owner was not interested in video features. The lack of video features was due sales and marketing, not due to crippling in order to protect the cinema line. Maybe all that has changed now due to new information reaching the marketing division. I know that last summer I received a questionnaire from the cinema group asking me about my purchases and camera needs. As a Canon cinema user, I would buy one or two 5D iV's if these rumors turn out to be true.

 

[ExodistPhotography]

We have been sent more information about the upcoming C-Log update to the EOS 5D Mark IV, while this comes from a new source, it’s pretty detailed.</p>
<p><strong>Canon EOS 5D Mark IV C-Log Update:</strong></p>
<ul>
<li>All video output will still be 8-bit.</li>
<li>Sampling for DCI 4K will be increased to a 5632 x 2970 pixel sensor area resulting in a 1.27x Crop factor.</li>
<li>Sampling for UHD will be from a 5472 x 3078 pixel sensor area resulting in a 1.29x Crop factor.</li>
<li>Both modes are accurately down-sampled to their final resolutions.</li>
<li>Existing frame rates will remain the same.</li>
<li>The current 1:1 4K sampling mode will remain an option for situations benefiting from the 1.78x Crop factor.</li>
<li>There will also be new full-sensor 3K modes added including 60fps and HDR 24fps.Both will use a line-alternating sampling method, so quality will be inferior to the improved 4K format (but better than the existing FullHD 1080p format.) It is unclear whether the file resolution in the final firmware will be the full 3360 x 1890 format or down-sampled to 3072 x 1728.</li>
<li>FullHD 1080p will also use this 3K full-sensor mode with down-sampling for a noticeable improvement in perceived resolution.</li>
<li>FullHD 1080p will also receive a modest frame rate boost to 72/75fps.</li>
<li>The EOS 5D Mark IV will gain the XF-AVC file format at 120Mbps (4:2:0) and 200Mbps (4:2:2). Both formats should require low enough data rates to accommodate UHS-I U3 type SD Cards.</li>
<li>Reports relating to a possible service job for the 5D Mark IV are the result of the heat sinks on current units not performing well in some environments when used with the newer firmware. This is because of the increased processing load from the enlarged video sampling area. Newer units will ship with an improved heat sink while existing 5D Mark IV units can be retrofitted. Pricing is unconfirmed for that servicing.</li>
<li>The newer firmware will still work in non-serviced cameras, but this may result in premature temperature warnings.</li>
</ul>
<p><em>More to come…</em></p>
<span id="pty_trigger"></span>

THIS THIS IS WHAT WE WANTED...

I do hope this makes it as this will very likely push me to get the 5D4 instead of waiting for the 6D2..

 

[eguzowski]

IT'S ABPUT F'ING TIME! I'm thrilled the competition slapped them in the face...obviously there sales of the 5D IV Joke of a video DLR were tricking and they though, "huh..so now were going to piss off the pros with a 6D mark II with better 4k because the market won't take our bullshit anymore."

First time this camera has interested me now as a 5D3 owner whom was looking at moving to Sony after 17 years as a Canon Pro (I've already begun switching to Sigma Art Glass with is great...after selling my L Glass)

...still not sure it will save me until they also get a real mirrorless camera in their arsenal.

 

[Mikehit]

...obviously there sales of the 5D IV Joke of a video DLR were tricking and they though, "huh..so now were going to piss off the pros with a 6D mark II with better 4k because the market won't take our bullS___ anymore."

Wow! What a lot of hate.
Having a firmware this significant so soon after release is more likely to be stuff they planned at the time of release rather than your more fanciful 'slap in the face'.

If Canon is causing you so much stress why not just switch to Sony and have done with it...then watch helplessly as Canon surpass Sony.

 

[mps]

...obviously there sales of the 5D IV Joke of a video DLR were tricking and they though, "huh..so now were going to piss off the pros with a 6D mark II with better 4k because the market won't take our bullS___ anymore."

Wow! What a lot of hate.
Having a firmware this significant so soon after release is more likely to be stuff they planned at the time of release rather than your more fanciful 'slap in the face'.

If Canon is causing you so much stress why not just switch to Sony and have done with it...then watch helplessly as Canon surpass Sony.

you really believe that? so in your eyes canon realeased after 4(?) years of waiting the 5d4 and then rushed it out without the intended firmware? no man, not even canon.. this is just a reaction to the whole market situation: videoshooters leave canon by the thousands, and this is the only idea they had to somewhat fight that trend. too late, too little canon. either this or the whole thing about the firmwareupdate is an early april fools joke (which i tend to believe)

also to me it seesms canon doesnt take videoshooters seriously. c100 doesnt even do broadcast quality, the c300 is a joke regarding the price, and the c700 tires (and miserably fails) to be an arri amira. their 8k solution is a joke, especially if you see the canon monster rig required for that next to a red.... their propperly specced cameras (c300II) are way overpriced, the whole dslr range (including the c100) is underpowered. canon, stick to make printers, thats what you are good at....

 

[Mikehit]

you really believe that? so in your eyes canon realeased after 4(?) years of waiting the 5d4 and then rushed it out without the intended firmware? no man, not even canon.. this is just a reaction to the whole market situation: videoshooters leave canon by the thousands, and this is the only idea they had to somewhat fight that trend. too late, too little canon. either this or the whole thing about the firmwareupdate is an early april fools joke (which i tend to believe)

also to me it seesms canon doesnt take videoshooters seriously. c100 doesnt even do broadcast quality, the c300 is a joke regarding the price, and the c700 tires (and miserably fails) to be an arri amira. their 8k solution is a joke, especially if you see the canon monster rig required for that next to a red.... their propperly specced cameras (c300II) are way overpriced, the whole dslr range (including the c100) is underpowered. canon, stick to make printers, thats what you are good at....

I believe it is more likely than Canon crippling their new camera, then unlocking that because of a vocal minority (a reaction that was hardly unexpected) whose priority is video.
It was far more likely that Canon had a release date and the firmware was not ready so they released what they had.
Is this any less likely than Sony releasing a highly compromised camera and releasing an updated version less than a year late, a version which everyone said was what the first one should have been in the first place (and pissing off many of their clients in the first place).

 

[kaptainkatsu]

The 1DX II will not get any advanced video futures. The 1DX is considered Canon's "pro" DSLR and they don't want to annoy real photographers.

I hope this isn't true. While I did buy my 1DX2 primarily as a stills camera, the 4k@60 and 1080@120 features really did put my purchase decision over the edge. I dabble in a bit of video work (and need to do more to become more proficient at it) and these rumored updates to the 5D4 will be welcome to me. Code base should be similar between the 1DX2 and 5D4 so I wouldn't think it would be too hard to push out a similar update.

Secondly, the do it all nature of the 1DX2 reallly appeals to me. I don't have to go out and buy a C100ii to do video