DPReview Interview With Canon Execs, \

[neuroanatomist]

The EOS M50 offers 4K video and Dual Pixel CMOS AF, but not at the same time. Is there a technical reason for this limitation?
With the EOS 5D Mark IV, we do offer 4K video and Dual Pixel CMOS autofocus, so technically it is feasible. But given the position of the M50 in the lineup, we can’t include all of the features available in a product like the 5D IV.

Mr. Tugela. Paging Mr. Tugela...

The digic 8 will do on a higher end model what it can do on a lower end model. The limitations on using PDAF when shooting 4K in the M50 are a clear indication that the processor is operating at the very limit of it's capabilities. Going to a larger body is not going to change that.

Well, after all, you're the expert on Digic processors and their capabilities. You expertly stated that all cameras with Digic 7 would shoot 4K video, for an expertish example of your expertly expert expertise.

Mr. Tugela, would you care to expound further on how the lack of DPAF + 4K in the M50 is a technical limitation of Digic 8? We're all eagerly awaiting to hear how you know more than Canon about their cameras. Please, do enlighten us with more of your expertly expertish expertise and your truly dizzying intellect.

 

[scyrene]

The word crippling should be banned from use by those who use it wrongly. Crippling means what is now considered crippled had the features to begin with and then those features were taken away.

But hey, I'm all for every camera at every price point all having the same features. The m50 should absolutely have all the same features of a 1DX II at an M50 price. : : :

Where do these people come from?

+1

 

[BeenThere]

My take is that we will have to wait a year or more for Canon’s first FF mirrorless offering. There will be a lot of speculation on this forum between now and then. Also there will likely be a couple of SLRs before the FF mirrorless >
5Dsr II
7D III

 

[bf]

If Canon just limited M50's capability assuming it's lineup they made a huge mistake. No one will chose it over a DSLR like 5DmiV due to the features! They just lose more customers who would invest in M50.
When I look back, they didn't offer DPAF for years in their mirrorless cameras and they lost customers like me till they offered it in M5+6.

 

[jeffa4444]

And lack of 4K in the rest of the lineup is a lack of perception by Canon into the marketplace- in other words, they were wrong about 4K, and do not have infallible market research, as many have stated. 4K came up faster than they anticipated.

We just carried out a little experiment couple of days ago in our lab. We used three 65" televisions with different configurations: (i) 1080p input into 4k TV (ii) 4k input into 4k TV (iii) 1080p input into 1080p TV. We used identical scene for comparison.

When we viewed the output at normal viewing distance, more than 1 m away, none of us (there were six of us in the lab) could tell the difference. We could only tell the difference when we stood 30 cm away from each screen and pixel-peep at specific areas of the scene. Sure, configuration (ii) gave the best output, but it was only visible when we pixel-peeped at 30 cm distance from the TV.

I feel Canon was not wrong. 4k is over-hyped. It's great for pixel-peepers and serious video editors. But for the man-in-the-street, it's an overkill.

I think a lot of it comes down to the input being displayed - there's a huge difference between 1080 and 4k (even compressed 4K) when I'm viewing the timelapses I shoot. I haven't shot a lot of wildlife, but the other side of 4k is the better colour when downsampled to 1080 too.

Not saying that it's useful all the time, but I feel there's a significant improvement in viewing quality for most of what I do at least. I'd really like to see canon including the option on more models, without large compromises

I have to agree here. When you have high-contrast details that are in a static position on screen, you have use for extra resolution. But even then, I wouldn't pay extra for 4K resolution unless I had a reason to go for a TV with a diagonal larger than the viewing distance. At the 65" diagonal mentioned, I fully believe a person with normal eye sight would be able to distinguish between the sets at a 1m distance given some really nasty input like white text on black background. But only if you knew what to look for.

Now, REC2020 includes quite a bit more than allowing for higher resolutions. The larger colour gamut and additional allowance of dynamic range would be clearly visible from any practical distance, for example.

I'm with Canon in the team that can't understand why people want 4K resolution everywhere.

Not sure how "scientific" Woody experience was, but its not the experience we have had. Compression plays a big part of how good a 1080P or 4K picture is and how the picture pipeline is handled. Many 4K TVs display 1080P badly, likewise 4K delivered over say cable compared to say bluray will look very different.
No question well presented 4K will look better than 1080P/2K including at "normal" viewing distances. Now there is an optimal viewing distance and its true the higher the K the closer you need to be to get the full benefit. But and its a big but generally speaking if you view that 4K picture at a 2K viewing distance its generally better than the 2K image. The "missing part" is oversampling its generally accepted in the industry that shooting say 4K and oversampling to 2K will provide a better picture than shooting 2K for 2K output.

8K will never practically get displayed, but it will become a capture format oversampled to 4K, we already see 6K & 8K cameras from the likes of Red, Sony & Arri in video, many high end movies are already shooting this way.

In a typical multiplex cinema with a movie screen of 56ft diagonal to see the full benefit of 4K you should sit in the first three to four rows at the front of the theatre, for 8K it would be in the no mans land between the screen and the front row. However oversampling retains the wider color gamut of REC.2020 which will definitely make the pictures look different and generally speaking these cameras have better dynamic range and better signal to noise ratios. Many other things make up a difference (format, lens choice etc.)

Canon are right and Canon are wrong about 4K / 8K, right from a practical viewing distance point of view, wrong about image information and the benefits of oversampling.

 

[Talys]

If Canon just limited M50's capability assuming it's lineup they made a huge mistake. No one will chose it over a DSLR like 5DmiV due to the features! They just lose more customers who would invest in M50.
When I look back, they didn't offer DPAF for years in their mirrorless cameras and they lost customers like me till they offered it in M5+6.

Wait... you're saying that nobody would choose the small, $740 entry level mirrorless over the full-size $3,000 flagship DSLR, because of features.... and this is unreasonable?


I'm not sure what you want. A $750 mirrorless that does all the same things as a $3,000 dslr? I think you'll be waiting for a while.

 

[Valvebounce]

Bye bye, don’t let the door slap you on the ass on the way out!
I don’t suppose I’m the only one who doesn’t care!

wow thanks for the article but that is such bullshit! Keep it up Canon, protect your 5DIV in the meanwhile I'll sell mine and buy an A7III and a6500. Idiots.

 

[ichiru]

Which part did you think was bull?

Is it that you simply don't like that Canon does not lower prices and add features features of flagship models down to the more entry level models (ie A7iii price), do you not like the direction that they're charting out, or what?

The 5DMk4 is a very different camera from the A7iii and A6500. If you're happy with it, you might not be happy with the Sony -- and vice versa. As you own a 5D4 already, what is about the 5D4 that you aren't happy with?
[/quote]

Simply put? The crippling part was bullshit... I mean they are being very straightforward about it too.

I am not happy about the lack of an EVF, a tilt screen, truly widespread autofocus points (through the viewfinder). I could definitely use a stabilized sensor as well as 10 fps. I shoot Canon for the L glass... I enjoy the colors as well but damn I feel everybody else innovates better than they do and yeah that is frustrating.

 

[ichiru]

Such an ignorant post.

So go ahead. If you think that new Sony is going to make photos from a 5DM4 suddenly obsolete and unusable, then it just proves that you're more a weekend shooter and not someone that really is in a position to use either camera to its fullest extent. Either camera provides photo quality that most will never be able to distinguish.

So give it a rest. Threats of jumping ship get really old.
[/quote]

Dude. I was using original 5Ds until last year... I was satisfied with image quality but upgraded for other reasons. You can call me a weekend shooter all you want but I am not sure how that explains my gear is 100 % paid by my business. Jumping ship is not something I want to do as I love my L glass... but you'd have to be hiding your head in the sand if you can't even imagine how that is super tempting at half the price!?

 

[ichiru]

Bye bye, don’t let the door slap you on the ass on the way out!
I don’t suppose I’m the only one who doesn’t care!

Well for one Canon should care because there are loads of other people doing the same out there my friend =D.

 

[rrcphoto]

If Canon just limited M50's capability assuming it's lineup they made a huge mistake. No one will chose it over a DSLR like 5DmiV due to the features! They just lose more customers who would invest in M50.
When I look back, they didn't offer DPAF for years in their mirrorless cameras and they lost customers like me till they offered it in M5+6.

it took until DPAF and DIGIC 7 to finally come around before it was really ready for mirrorless.
the earlier forms of DPAF also had alot of caveats as far as what lenses would work on it.

with DPAF it's more than "just the sensor". DIGIC gives it the performance necessary to operate efficiently.

I'm also curious by people claiming x, y or z .. such as "If Canon just limited M50's capability assuming it's lineup they made a huge mistake"

how so?

by offering an entry level camera with entry level features?

we have NO idea what the limitations or the engineering challenges were to making 4K "better" on the M50.

 

[Mt Spokane Photography]

Virtually every product on earth has entry level, and mid / high level products which are basically the same product with different features or packaging.

Bread
Butter Milk
Automobiles
TV Sets
The list goes on forever.


A person who does not understand this must have been living in a cave.

 

[ichiru]

The word crippling should be banned from use by those who use it wrongly. Crippling means what is now considered crippled had the features to begin with and then those features were taken away.

But hey, I'm all for every camera at every price point all having the same features. The m50 should absolutely have all the same features of a 1DX II at an M50 price. : : :

Where do these people come from?

How is it not crippled if the rep himself says the camera should be able to do it but doesn't?!

 

[BillB]

The word crippling should be banned from use by those who use it wrongly. Crippling means what is now considered crippled had the features to begin with and then those features were taken away.

But hey, I'm all for every camera at every price point all having the same features. The m50 should absolutely have all the same features of a 1DX II at an M50 price. : : :

Where do these people come from?

How is it not crippled if the rep himself says the camera should be able to do it but doesn't?!

When a camera is designed to a price point, something has to get left out. Pretty much all cameras are designed to a price point, at least to some extent. So, by your logic pretty much all cameras are crippled. I guess you can used crippled that way if you want to, but it seems pretty silly to me.

 

[Talys]

Simply put? The crippling part was bullshit... I mean they are being very straightforward about it too.

I am not happy about the lack of an EVF, a tilt screen, truly widespread autofocus points (through the viewfinder). I could definitely use a stabilized sensor as well as 10 fps. I shoot Canon for the L glass... I enjoy the colors as well but damn I feel everybody else innovates better than they do and yeah that is frustrating.

If you wanted an EVF, why on earth did you buy a 5D4, and not an A7R2? I mean, that s like buying a corvette and saying why isn't the engine quiet like Tesla.

At the end of the day, you may love Sony EVF, or I suspect, if yore fair about it, you'll love some things and dislike others. They have just not been perfected yet, but despite this, some people have preference for them, which is fair. But don't buy a DSLR and be upset I doesn't have a EVF!

By the way, the A7R3 10fps is 'crippled'. Unlike the A9, 10fps mode doesn't update the viewfinder in real time, so for most purposes it is really a 8fps camera.

Which is to say it isn't really crippled at all, because it's a cheaper camera nd records more pixels. But if e want to bastardize the word...

 

[neuroanatomist]

Bye bye, don’t let the door slap you on the ass on the way out!
I don’t suppose I’m the only one who doesn’t care!

Well for one Canon should care because there are loads of other people doing the same out there my friend =D.

Only in your mind, my friend. Of course there are people switching from Canon to Sony. But there are also people switching from Nikon to Canon, and from Sony to Fuji, and every other possible direction. The thing is, Canon has been gaining ILC market share, and expects to gain more. So these 'loads of other people' you mention are irrelevant...as are you, my friend.

 

[neuroanatomist]

Virtually every product on earth has entry level, and mid / high level products which are basically the same product with different features or packaging.

Bread
Butter Milk
Automobiles
TV Sets
The list goes on forever.

A person who does not understand this must have been living in a cave.

Indeed. We call them trolls.

 

[bf]

If Canon just limited M50's capability assuming it's lineup they made a huge mistake. No one will chose it over a DSLR like 5DmiV due to the features! They just lose more customers who would invest in M50.
When I look back, they didn't offer DPAF for years in their mirrorless cameras and they lost customers like me till they offered it in M5+6.

it took until DPAF and DIGIC 7 to finally come around before it was really ready for mirrorless.
the earlier forms of DPAF also had alot of caveats as far as what lenses would work on it.

with DPAF it's more than "just the sensor". DIGIC gives it the performance necessary to operate efficiently.

I'm also curious by people claiming x, y or z .. such as "If Canon just limited M50's capability assuming it's lineup they made a huge mistake"

how so?

by offering an entry level camera with entry level features?

we have NO idea what the limitations or the engineering challenges were to making 4K "better" on the M50.

If the hardware is not there, I don't blame them but this interview says the feature is limited considering M50's position in the lineup. That's what does not sound good to me.

 

[Talys]

If the hardware is not there, I don't blame them but this interview says the feature is limited considering M50's position in the lineup. That's what does not sound good to me.

I really don't understand your point of view. The interviewee actually said that providing 4k DPAF was not possible at this price point. Assuming it means what you think it does, and the hardware is capable, but is configured to have the option disabled -- although is not what h said...

Would you prefer that they sold the M50 for $1,000 and gave it 4k DPAF, and simply did not have a $740 option?

As Mt Spokane put it, TVs and computers and microwaves and refrigerators and... well, everything else you buy works the same way. The manufacturing cost differences between 4 different models may be very close, but the prices they sell at may have a large gap. Just look at iPhone memory, or Surface hard drive space, or Samsung television sets, or Panasonic microwaves, for example.

And there is always the other possibility, of course, which is simply that it not being possible just means that the hardware is NOT up to snuff, and Canon can't make enough money producing a $740 camera that has 4k DPAF.

I simply would not read too much into "technically it is feasible" since it is in 5D4, because "technically it is feasible" to have 16fps and 4k60p, since that's in 1DXII.

 

[Tugela]

The EOS M50 offers 4K video and Dual Pixel CMOS AF, but not at the same time. Is there a technical reason for this limitation?
With the EOS 5D Mark IV, we do offer 4K video and Dual Pixel CMOS autofocus, so technically it is feasible. But given the position of the M50 in the lineup, we can’t include all of the features available in a product like the 5D IV.

Mr. Tugela. Paging Mr. Tugela...

The digic 8 will do on a higher end model what it can do on a lower end model. The limitations on using PDAF when shooting 4K in the M50 are a clear indication that the processor is operating at the very limit of it's capabilities. Going to a larger body is not going to change that.

Well, after all, you're the expert on Digic processors and their capabilities. You expertly stated that all cameras with Digic 7 would shoot 4K video, for an expertish example of your expertly expert expertise.

Mr. Tugela, would you care to expound further on how the lack of DPAF + 4K in the M50 is a technical limitation of Digic 8? We're all eagerly awaiting to hear how you know more than Canon about their cameras. Please, do enlighten us with more of your expertly expertish expertise and your truly dizzying intellect.

Simple, the processor lacks the computational power to do it all.

You are forgetting that the higher end DSLRs have an extra processor dedicated to focusing and exposure. The 5D4 uses a Digic 6+ for image processing, but it also has a Digic 6 solely for use with focusing and exposure. Likewise the 1D cameras have three processors, dual current model processors for image processing and an older model processor for focusing/exposure/tracking as part of the focusing system. That is why it can handle DPAF and 4K at the same time. The M50 only has one processor, which has to do everything, but it can't do that all and still stay in it's thermal envelope. Hence no DPAF and 4K. The computational demands are too great. That is the technical limitation Canon is talking about. Sure, they could make a camera that could do both, simply by adding a extra processor, but that would greatly increase the cost and complexity of the camera, which in turn would result in it being priced out of the target market.

Unless you think the Canon exec is lying, in which case I can't help you.