Stock Notice: Canon EOS R5 Mark II at B&H Photo

A few years back (when the 5DIII was launched) I wrote a very polite but direct letter to the UK CEO of Canon distribution to ask why the camera was substantially more expensive in the Uk vs the USA. At the time the UK Pound was worth 2 to one US Dollar and we were being charged Pound for Dollar plus UK VAT. It took him about 3 weeks to reply and he sent me a very nice set of brocures. A copy of LensWorks III and a hand signed letter. He basically said that the USA pricing excludes all local taxes and their nuanced market expects a low common pricing across all shops with no discounts expected.

Canon's Uk pricing policy sets a high RRP, allowing dealers a larger margin to discount and local discounts were expected on each end sale. HOWEVER, we all know that in recent years, Canon have squished the margins of the dealers and are deliberately stemming supply so the dealers so they are forced to sell the limited supply of new stock at the inflated RRP.
I also recived an email a few days later that basically said that Canon charge the UK high prices because they can and the photographers buy them a that price.

Since this time I now buy all my UK gear from the grey market or from HDEW.
Even though I fully agree with you, I'm going to play the devil's advocate.
Whenever I contacted a British company, for an information or a complaint, the answer was almost immediate. Which cannot be said of most French companies., You have to be very patient, and, most often, you'll wait in vain. Provided you don't get the traditional "we suggest you contact your retailer" even though you told them that the retailer couldn't help, and suggested you join the manufacturer... :rolleyes:
More and more people find it is a waste of time to actually read an email or a letter!
In my company, when a journalist asked for a picture of the V12 petrol engine, he got one of the 4 in-line diesel...
 
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Not allowing discounting would amount to price fixing under competition law and would be illegal. Generally, manufacturers are allowed to set a RRP which distributors/retailers must not exceed, but they cannot generally prohibit distributors/retailers from going below this price. The difficulty is that the price to the distributor/retailer probably doesn't leave much margin for profit, which is why you don't see any discounts because there is no incentive to do so.
It is called RPM, retail price maintenance, and it is illegal, but it happens. Further, they are not applying RRP to the sale of the LP-E6P cells by Mifsuds at £149.99 (posted here) which is £40 above the Canon Store price.
 
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You are absolutely correct and further Canon actually does not allow dealers in the UK to discount. I should have had the patience to wait but I was so fortunate to get the original R5 early that I was hit by FOMO this time. Again, it beats me how people who do not know the situation here make unwarranted claims about pricing, including claiming the different taxation - whenever I compare prices, I quote the UK price with tax/VAT taken off to compare with US pre-tax price.
I can only wonder why Canon UK don't try to sue grey market sellers.
And I wonder even more why so many are still accepting this price-gouging. Thanks to this forum (your contribution and Entoman's), I became acquainted with the existence of serious grey market companies. And have already saved several thousand euros...
 
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I can only wonder why Canon UK don't try to sue grey market sellers.
And I wonder even more why so many are still accepting this price-gouging. Thanks to this forum (your contribution and Entoman's), I became acquainted with the existence of serious grey market companies. And have already saved several thousand euros...
The law here and in the EU would not allow them so to do as it would be anti-competitive and illegal.
 
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Dont be stupid Neuro. Or prove that it was Japan specific.
It's on the Canon Japan website. In Japanese. Not on any other Canon website. There are products listed on there like rain covers that are widely available outside of Japan. You're the one claiming (repeatedly) that Canon is perpetrating a hoax on their customers. But you have no evidence to back that up. Doesn't seem very smart.
 
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Oh, and also @sanj – the R5II is still listed on Canon Japan's website as being delayed, yet as you point out it seems to be widely available. It's in stock at Canon USA and has been for a while. Yet on Canon Japan's product page, there's a link to the delay notice and an order cannot be placed. So if you're right then Canon is not only perpetrating a hoax on their customers worldwide (outside of Japan) but they're horribly inept at doing so. I suggest that you take a step back and reflect on whether your claim actually makes sense.
 
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If you provide the evidence of how those hypothetical factors do actually apply in practice to the pricing of Canon goods here, then I would certainly believe you if they accounted for the price difference. Without details, it's just speculation.
I'm astonished you're asking for proof that could only be obtained with internal corporate trading records. Are you trolling me on purpose? Or do you think I have access to such records? Or is it that you haven't had much experience in international corporate operations that you think ANYBODY on the entire planet would be able to "prove" this without extremely detailed corporate records? If it's the latter, then not a problem. It's the former, go pick on someone else.

Yes, it's "just" speculation, but until there is an alternate explanation, this seems to be the only explanation there is, except that Canon is somehow "too stupid to check FX rates on Google" or (some have suggested) greedily "gouging" some markets (which begs the question, why not gouge everyone).

You haven't really worked the decades I have in international business, I would guess, if things like import duty, VAT, varying tax rates across the corporate structure and so on are "hypothetical" to you. These aren't hypothetical.
 
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I must have missed where you mentioned how those factors are unique to Canon, and do not apply to Sony or Nikon.
I wonder if you're trying to be snarky but I'll assume it's an honest question.

The simplest example I can think of is if firm A is basically making zero profit: the corporate tax differences in different markets don't matter as corp tax is due on profit. No profit means no taxes, allowing it to set prices more similarly everywhere. Firm B, that is making profit, has to therefore consider something firm A doesn't. What we'd expect to see is firm B both more interested and more able to price competitively in a region with low tax, and attempt to grow market share there, while in a high tax region, firm B would have higher prices, to recoup more similar net profit per unit after tax, even at the cost of diminished market share. If this isn't clear, take it to extremes: imagine an extreme scenario where a certain country has a corp tax rate of 100%. A profitable company might not bother selling there at all, and leave that market to companies that aren't operating profitably.

Different firms will be locking in their FX rates at different times and for different horizons. One firm may have done so at when the yen was at 100 for 5 years. Another firm may have done so at 140 for 2 years. If you want more details on how this works I can go into great detail.

Different firms have different corporate structures that give them different tax rates in different markets. Maybe firm A has set up an import company in Ireland and books their profit there and pays low Irish tax rates, while firm B hasn't and pays far higher German tax rates.

Or firm A's lawyers have cautioned it AGAINST setting up an Irish profit-booking entity on the grounds that the EU or the US may determine it's tax cheating and land a fine on firms doing it while firm B has decided it's totally legal and is paying lower tax for this reason. In fact one may even be paying off some sort of fine while another isn't.

Or if you're looking at the UK, maybe one firm has had a UK corporate entity for decades, and now that the UK has left the EU has dusted that off and is using it efficiently, while another doesn't have such a firm or has had the cost of setting up such a firm only since Brexit. Maybe that entity isn't set up efficiently yet. Or contrarily, there may be some special tax rates available now that weren't available before. If you're in the US you've seen this when a state offers a 10 year tax rebate to a company to set up a factory there. Other countries have special economic zones whose rules vary over time and some companies were able to take advantage of them and some didn't.

Some countries have preferential import duties for certain countries. If firm A is making lenses with parts from Mexico and firm B is making them with parts from China, firm A pays lower import duty to the US due to the USMCA (the new NAFTA) allowing freer trade between the US Canada and Mexico. If you're interested especially in UK/EU, these countries are often very preferential to their old colonies. I don't know that this would be a factor in lens/camera manufacture but it's been a problem for decades in the banana trade.

Some firms may be running their UK help desk in the UK at high UK prices while another firm is doing it in the Philippines.

If you're being like AlanF and setting the bar at me having to PROVE why prices differ, you're setting the bar too high. Even industry analysts who know every public financial detail of the various firms' operating structures will not be able to know for a fact exactly why prices are set like they are. An analyst might even have noted an "official announcement" explaining the pricing but even such public communications, while they have to be true, may be far from the whole story.
 
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I do not read Japanese. You seem to do so. So I guess Canon is sabotaging Japan and providing the camera to the rest of the world. LOL. And now it seems Adorama (another big store) has finished preorders and the camera is available for current shipping...
 
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I'm astonished you're asking for proof that could only be obtained with internal corporate trading records. Are you trolling me on purpose? Or do you think I have access to such records? Or is it that you haven't had much experience in international corporate operations that you think ANYBODY on the entire planet would be able to "prove" this without extremely detailed corporate records? If it's the latter, then not a problem. It's the former, go pick on someone else.

Yes, it's "just" speculation, but until there is an alternate explanation, this seems to be the only explanation there is, except that Canon is somehow "too stupid to check FX rates on Google" or (some have suggested) greedily "gouging" some markets (which begs the question, why not gouge everyone).

You haven't really worked the decades I have in international business, I would guess, if things like import duty, VAT, varying tax rates across the corporate structure and so on are "hypothetical" to you. These aren't hypothetical.

Please read this post.
I also recived an email a few days later that basically said that Canon charge the UK high prices because they can and the photographers buy them a that price.

Since this time I now buy all my UK gear from the grey market or from HDEW.
 
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A few years back (when the 5DIII was launched) I wrote a very polite but direct letter to the UK CEO of Canon distribution to ask why the camera was substantially more expensive in the Uk vs the USA. At the time the UK Pound was worth 2 to one US Dollar and we were being charged Pound for Dollar plus UK VAT. It took him about 3 weeks to reply and he sent me a very nice set of brocures. A copy of LensWorks III and a hand signed letter. He basically said that the USA pricing excludes all local taxes and their nuanced market expects a low common pricing across all shops with no discounts expected.

Canon's Uk pricing policy sets a high RRP, allowing dealers a larger margin to discount and local discounts were expected on each end sale. HOWEVER, we all know that in recent years, Canon have squished the margins of the dealers and are deliberately stemming supply so the dealers so they are forced to sell the limited supply of new stock at the inflated RRP.
I also recived an email a few days later that basically said that Canon charge the UK high prices because they can and the photographers buy them a that price.

Since this time I now buy all my UK gear from the grey market or from HDEW.
May I ask from whom did you receive this email about Canon charging higher prices because they can?
Employees have been fired for less than that! ;)
 
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I do not read Japanese. You seem to do so. So I guess Canon is sabotaging Japan and providing the camera to the rest of the world. LOL. And now it seems Adorama (another big store) has finished preorders and the camera is available for current shipping...
The R5II is not available/in stock in Japan, and Canon Japan has a statement on their website that there is a long delay in providing them. The R5II seems to be widely available in many other countries. Your explanation seems to be that Canon was perpetrating a hoax on their customers by announcing a long delay when there really isn't one. So either:
  • You're right and Canon was using a tactic to drive up interest/buzz/preorders, but they just suck at market manipulation
  • You're right, but Canon is so stupid they announce a global delay then make the camera available almost everywhere anyway
  • Canon is not able/willing to provide the camera in Japan for some unknown reason, and they announced a Japan-specific delay in Japanese on their Japan website
  • There was supposed to be a global delay, but whatever the cause was unexpectedly alleviated (as suggested by @Del Paso) and the camera is available everywhere and will even start being available in Japan soon
Of the above options, the first two really don't seem rational, the third seems reasonable but time will tell if the 4th is true. They seem to update their product delay list monthly, so we'll see next month if the R5II disappears from the list.
 
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If you're being like AlanF and setting the bar at me having to PROVE why prices differ, you're setting the bar too high. Even industry analysts who know every public financial detail of the various firms' operating structures will not be able to know for a fact exactly why prices are set like they are.
I've spent enough time in senior roles in large corporations that I set the bar for ethical corporate behavior very low.

You listed several possible reasons for Canon's UK pricing differential, but really I think you're ignoring Occam's razor. The simplest and most logical explanation is that Canon is charging higher prices in the UK because they can (and doing so is profitable, or else there would be no motivation to do so). Charge what the market will bear, and if price gouging in the UK doesn't negatively impact UK sales to the point profit is diminished, then Canon is making the right choice (for Canon, which is who Canon cares about).
 
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Different firms will be locking in their FX rates at different times and for different horizons. One firm may have done so at when the yen was at 100 for 5 years. Another firm may have done so at 140 for 2 years. If you want more details on how this works I can go into great detail.
My guess is that most people are skipping through this but I'm finding it fascinating. I am curious about how and with whom this rate locking is done.

The details of international trade are always a fun rabbit hole. I recall once a book I wrote that was a broader success than usual meant we expanded to have sales in one country (which I'll leave nameless) that required us to sell the rights in that country to a new corporation we had to set up which had to have majority local ownership with us getting to have a minority share along with them paying us a licensing fee. We already had a presence there but, in that niche, we were barred from being the translator or publisher or contracting those services to a local firm.
 
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I've spent enough time in senior roles in large corporations that I set the bar for ethical corporate behavior very low.

You listed several possible reasons for Canon's UK pricing differential, but really I think you're ignoring Occam's razor. The simplest and most logical explanation is that Canon is charging higher prices in the UK because they can (and doing so is profitable, or else there would be no motivation to do so). Charge what the market will bear, and if price gouging in the UK doesn't negatively impact UK sales to the point profit is diminished, then Canon is making the right choice (for Canon, which is who Canon cares about).
Just have a look at Mercedes Benz' price lists in different countries. The differences are huge outside the EU. And even in the EU, some countries are offered "bonuses" like longer warranties, better basic equipment. It also works in the negative mode.For a long time, US customers paid far less, German customers far more...
And if you want a BMW, better buy it in France, average income being lower than in Germany, you'll get more car for the same price.
Charge as much as customers can pay is the universal motto.
 
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May I ask from whom did you receive this email about Canon charging higher prices because they can?
Employees have been fired for less than that! ;)
I'm certainly not going to disclose company confidential email address details of a CEO or employee on a public forum.
I'm suprised that you would ask for such a thing. In the last 10 years since I had these correspondance...the internet / cyber sapce has become a far less safe place.
 
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The R5II is not available/in stock in Japan, and Canon Japan has a statement on their website that there is a long delay in providing them. The R5II seems to be widely available in many other countries. Your explanation seems to be that Canon was perpetrating a hoax on their customers by announcing a long delay when there really isn't one. So either:
  • You're right and Canon was using a tactic to drive up interest/buzz/preorders, but they just suck at market manipulation
  • You're right, but Canon is so stupid they announce a global delay then make the camera available almost everywhere anyway
  • Canon is not able/willing to provide the camera in Japan for some unknown reason, and they announced a Japan-specific delay in Japanese on their Japan website
  • There was supposed to be a global delay, but whatever the cause was unexpectedly alleviated (as suggested by @Del Paso) and the camera is available everywhere and will even start being available in Japan soon
Of the above options, the first two really don't seem rational, the third seems reasonable but time will tell if the 4th is true. They seem to update their product delay list monthly, so we'll see next month if the R5II disappears from the list.
We also know that Canon has a limited supply of magnesium ore for the camera bodies. It's quite possible that there is a cluster of issues that are delaying the production of the R5ii. Some technical, some manufacturing, some distribution and some marketing.
 
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I'm certainly not going to disclose company confidential email address details of a CEO or employee on a public forum.
I'm suprised that you would ask for such a thing. In the last 10 years since I had these correspondance...the internet / cyber sapce has become a far less safe place.
I didn't want you to name the person, I was only interested in knowing whether you heard it from Canon or elsewhere.
Names should, of course, never be disclosed, this was not my intention at all !
Sorry for formulating my post in an ambiguous way.:oops:
 
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