The Canon EOS R5 Mark II – We have now seen it

[neuroanatomist]

Not for everyone - I have still experieced lock ups till the latest firmware, which came quite recently.
The latest firmware seems to have done the trick for me. But I had to wait till march 2024 for it.

I really need to set a calendar reminder to update my camera and lens firmware. I always remember just before an event/trip (like now, when I’m reminded but have an event tomorrow).

My R8 warns me about the RF 10-20mm, and my R3 locked up last week. Fortunately, on the R3 ‘pulling the battery’ is no slower than power cycling.

 

[Quack]

I think you hit the nail on the head, what that means though is that Canon doesn’t see bird/wildlife photography as a serious enough segment to offer a true flagship for. It’s just a confusing choice from them to have the R5 as the high-resolution body in their lineup and then two lower resolution bodies aimed at action. If the R3 didn’t exist it would make way more sense but as it stands it’s like if Sony had named the a9 III the a1s and kept the a9 II as a separate model in their lineup.

Why hung up on the word flagship? As primarily a bird/wildlife photographer, I am quite happy to have a camera that does everything you need for that genre in a camera that will cost approx. $4000 rather than a camera costing $6000 plus. Paying $2000 more just so I can tell my friends I own a flagship camera is not worth it to me.

 

[Baywoof]

The Canon EOS R5 Mark II is now in the hands of people outside of the closed testing circle of Canon.

We have now seen some images of the camera, but cannot post them in any way shape or form. This is standard practice for us, but I'm sure other sites will be posting images in the near future. Or we will get permission to do so.

Read full article

It appears Canon has made the decision to make the R5 mk2 to be an updated blend of the R5 and R5C to meet the "one camera for all" criteria. That's fine and it will be and excellent product I'm sure, BUT I would like to see Canon consider making a photo centric RF mount camera having at least 62+ mp (to compete with Sony) with a 3 layer stacked sensor affording the best dynamic range. It doesn't need a global shutter (unless one exists at that megapixel level). Also 2 cf express type B card slots should be required, plus I'm sure other features (internal ND filters?) some may wish to comment. Basic video can be included but not necessary. If not that then maybe Canon consider entering into Fuji/Hasselblad realm with a medium format unit. I would think pro and hobbyist photographers shooting stills would flock to such a camera.

 

[neuroanatomist]

Not having a good day?

Having a great day. But even on my best day, I won’t tolerate fools.

 

[Tony5787]

Why hung up on the word flagship? As primarily a bird/wildlife photographer, I am quite happy to have a camera that does everything you need for that genre in a camera that will cost approx. $4000 rather than a camera costing $6000 plus. Paying $2000 more just so I can tell my friends I own a flagship camera is not worth it to me.

I‘ve already said this multiple times and I don’t want to keep having this conversation because I keep catching flack for it. What I want to see is the R1 with more than 24MP, we’ll see what we get.

 

[neuroanatomist]

I‘ve already said this multiple times and I don’t want to keep having this conversation because I keep catching flack for it. What I want to see is the R1 with more than 24MP, we’ll see what we get.

The rumor post indicates 24 MP, but it's still just a rumor. Canon sometimes teases details along the way to an announcement, but the MP count is not teased (historically), only revealed at announcement.

Then again, the R3 was rumored to be 24 MP. I expected higher, and when an image with EXIF not scrubbed was posted during the 2021 Olympics showing the R3 and a 6000x4000 image dimension, I even argued that could have been because Canon locked the firmware to output 24 MP jpgs and that didn't mean the sensor wasn't natively higher. Manifestly, I was wrong.

 

[amorse]

That makes perfect sense. As I’ve stated previously, it doesn’t make sense for companies with a much smaller market share than the leader to simply copy the leader’s strategy.

I agree with that, and I’m not suggesting that they should or would. The outcome of that dynamic is that direct comparisons between bodies like the R5 and others are always half the story. Hence why the suggestions that “if the R5 doesn’t have x it will be dead in the water” or “canon doesn’t have a do it all flagship” is always missing the fact that it doesn’t actually need to be a perfect match for any specific photographic niche considering that the R5 is the most direct competitor for lots of different cameras from other manufacturers, and does a reasonably good job at each niche at a competitive price point. Even if the R5 loses ground to whatever camera, it’s likely the R5 is still competitive with several other bodies from that manufacturer because of how the camera is positioned in the lineup. It’s not aimed at being the best, it’s aimed at being good enough at everything and priced right to be competitive. So in other words, if Canon’s do it all isn’t a flagship body as other manufacturers have positioned their lineup, that doesn’t necessarily mean doom and gloom - it may then not be the right body for some, but it has been a pretty successful strategy over all.

 

[David - Sydney]

It appears Canon has made the decision to make the R5 mk2 to be an updated blend of the R5 and R5C to meet the "one camera for all" criteria. That's fine and it will be and excellent product I'm sure,

It appears that an active cooling grip will be available to assist with the continuous video requirements to keep the regular body at normal size so I don't think that video will impact it. The 5 series has always been a great generalist camera meeting a large group of user's requirements

BUT I would like to see Canon consider making a photo centric RF mount camera having at least 62+ mp (to compete with Sony) with a 3 layer stacked sensor affording the best dynamic range.

Why does Canon need to compete with the A1 at (currently) 2.2x the price?
Why does it have to be a 3 layer stacked sensor?
Why would 3 layer/stacked give the best dynamic range? Stacking will reduce the sensor readtime but the R5 showed how good a sensor could be using FSI despite calls that Canon must use BSI instead to compete with Sony.
At the end of the day, the technology utilised is not as important as the final resulting specification and implementation

It doesn't need a global shutter (unless one exists at that megapixel level).

That's great.. even it if did exist, the current technology reduces base ISO as the pixel well is reduced by the front side pixel storage. Reducing read speed using any technology would be welcome but won't tempt me to upgrade my R5

Also 2 cf express type B card slots should be required,

Why? it would be nice but would increase heat generation. Even the A1 only has 2xCFe type A card slots which are only used when buffer clearance is paramount. No 5 series has had identical card slots to my knowledge even if you are saying it is required.

Basic video can be included but not necessary.

The video stream is essential for AF tracking, EVF etc. Any video features are an extension to that and if implemented won't impact the stills performance.
It is good that you don't think that video is necessary but the growing use of hybrid cameras for stills and video would be the bigger market than yourself.

If not that then maybe Canon consider entering into Fuji/Hasselblad realm with a medium format unit. I would think pro and hobbyist photographers shooting stills would flock to such a camera.

It is unlikely that hobbyist would "flock" to a medium format camera. There aren't any RF lenses (besides TS-E) that cover that image circle so how would a user buy into that ecosystem?
Although a high mp full frame sensor would be welcomed by a certain segment of users, it is unclear to me that they are a large enough group to warrant segmentation let alone a medium format system
Fuji are not trying to compete with full frame. They focus on 4/3 and medium format which deliberately avoids direct competition. They do a fairly good job but represent a very small part of the market unit sales

 

[neuroanatomist]

Why does Canon need to compete with the A1 at (currently) 2.2x the price?

Why? Because everyone knows they do. But why? They just do. Oh, ok.

 

[Richard CN]

a 3 layer stacked sensor affording the best dynamic range. It doesn't need a global shutter (unless one exists at that megapixel level).

sounds like you have fallen prey to Sony's marketing department.

3 layer isnt' for improving DR, it's for improving speed as the third substrate is atypically memory. once you get 2+ layers, the DR won't change that much.

global shutter will most certainly hurt DR which goes against your first sentence.

 

[Richard CN]

Generally, cooled sensors are only for deep sky and not astrolandscape usage based on 450s exposures.
You would need an expensive EQ mount to track accurately for this exposure time.
Every deep-sky astro camera tends to be cooled and cannot be used for anything else. ZWO make a few including mono versions and can certainly cost more than a R5.

Yes, however, with mirrorless, your sensor continually operates. unlike with DSLR, where it was only running during liveview and/or during shooting.

it's also why when we were doing deep sky, we would take our subtraction and bias frames at the same time and the same amount of frames as we were shooting (because heat builds up over consecutive images) as the image frames because the heat of the sensor would be relatively the same.

Canon (and others) have done a lot to minimize heat at the sensor level, but it still exists, and if you leave your camera running, it will generate heat by because of continual sensor operation.

That's why I mentioned that you won't do extremely long exposures, but you WILL have your camera running for long periods of time.

 

[David - Sydney]

Yes, however, with mirrorless, your sensor continually operates. unlike with DSLR, where it was only running during liveview and/or during shooting.

it's also why when we were doing deep sky, we would take our subtraction and bias frames at the same time and the same amount of frames as we were shooting (because heat builds up over consecutive images) as the image frames because the heat of the sensor would be relatively the same.

Canon (and others) have done a lot to minimize heat at the sensor level, but it still exists, and if you leave your camera running, it will generate heat by because of continual sensor operation.

That's why I mentioned that you won't do extremely long exposures, but you WILL have your camera running for long periods of time.

Thanks for the explanation and I agree... but I question the use of ML cameras for deep sky acquisition time. For "decent" shots, a quality EQ mount plus telescope and dedicated/cooled sensor with filters is the option which can put my underwater investment in the shade from a cost perspective.

Those cooling mods appear to be only for DLSRs (there was one older Sony) and nothing recently so if there was a need, then I guess 3rd parties would provide a solution.
The heat generation wasn't an obvious problem for 2 minute exposures which were really limited by the accuracy of the trackers more than noise issues. We had Sony/Nikon and Canon users on the workshop and there wasn't an issue for astro landscapes. No dark/bias frames were needed for instance and we were shooting for hours - limited only by the milky way setting... that said, we did also shoot the "winter" milky way later one night. I am yet to process it but it was mostly for the Ha modded cameras.

I am intrigued but the use of video using thousands of frames for stacking algorithms on deep sky subjects.... It would be interesting to see how modern ML bodies can assist there.

 

[Baywoof]

It appears that an active cooling grip will be available to assist with the continuous video requirements to keep the regular body at normal size so I don't think that video will impact it. The 5 series has always been a great generalist camera meeting a large group of user's requirements


Why does Canon need to compete with the A1 at (currently) 2.2x the price?
Why does it have to be a 3 layer stacked sensor?
Why would 3 layer/stacked give the best dynamic range? Stacking will reduce the sensor readtime but the R5 showed how good a sensor could be using FSI despite calls that Canon must use BSI instead to compete with Sony.
At the end of the day, the technology utilised is not as important as the final resulting specification and implementation


That's great.. even it if did exist, the current technology reduces base ISO as the pixel well is reduced by the front side pixel storage. Reducing read speed using any technology would be welcome but won't tempt me to upgrade my R5

Why? it would be nice but would increase heat generation. Even the A1 only has 2xCFe type A card slots which are only used when buffer clearance is paramount. No 5 series has had identical card slots to my knowledge even if you are saying it is required.

The video stream is essential for AF tracking, EVF etc. Any video features are an extension to that and if implemented won't impact the stills performance.
It is good that you don't think that video is necessary but the growing use of hybrid cameras for stills and video would be the bigger market than yourself.

It is unlikely that hobbyist would "flock" to a medium format camera. There aren't any RF lenses (besides TS-E) that cover that image circle so how would a user buy into that ecosystem?
Although a high mp full frame sensor would be welcomed by a certain segment of users, it is unclear to me that they are a large enough group to warrant segmentation let alone a medium format system
Fuji are not trying to compete with full frame. They focus on 4/3 and medium format which deliberately avoids direct competition. They do a fairly good job but represent a very small part of the market unit sales

The current R5 has an CF Express card slot and an SD card slot and it's been reported that will remain the same in the R5 mk2. If you didn't know that you then don't know that much about the R5. It's still a wonderful camera but it's time for Canon to step up in technology not only for video capabilities but for those who still use the camera for its primary purpose, photography.

 

[David - Sydney]

The current R5 has an CF Express card slot and an SD card slot and it's been reported that will remain the same in the R5 mk2. If you didn't know that you then don't know that much about the R5. It's still a wonderful camera but it's time for Canon to step up in technology not only for video capabilities but for those who still use the camera for its primary purpose, photography.

I pre-ordered the R5 so I have used it for 4 years so far... quite familiar with it now. I had the 5Div and 5Diii before that so I am not sure what you mean. History has shown us that Canon is happy to have different slots for cards in the 5 series for a decade or more. I don't expect them to change for the R5ii but happy to be surprised. Personally, I would have preferred to have dual CFe slots as the cost wasn't much different but perhaps Canon had enough heating problems with a single one when recording 8k30 raw or clearing lots of buffers sequentially.

I am quite happy with my R5 but won't be upgrading for cost and housing issues.
The R5ii will be a step up for both stills and video. I am not sure what your real concern is but Canon doesn't need to match Sony's spec sheet for it to be a success.

 

[koenkooi]

I pre-ordered the R5 so I have used it for 4 years so far... quite familiar with it now. I had the 5Div and 5Diii before that so I am not sure what you mean. History has shown us that Canon is happy to have different slots for cards in the 5 series for a decade or more. I don't expect them to change for the R5ii but happy to be surprised. Personally, I would have preferred to have dual CFe slots as the cost wasn't much different but perhaps Canon had enough heating problems with a single one when recording 8k30 raw or clearing lots of buffers sequentially.
[…]

If Canon does switch to dual CFeB in the R5II we’ll get a bazillion post from people complaining they can’t use their old SD cards and that Canon is forcing them to buy video centric CFe cards. “Sony figured out how to do both!!!eleven!!!”

 

[scyrene]

Neil Leifer, who shot that frame of Ali standing over Liston, didn't miss. His "occasionally successful" shots, as you put it, were in the pages of Sports Illustrated practically every week from the late 1950s until he left SI to go to work for TIME magazine in 1978.

So? This seems entirely irrelevant to any point made earlier in this thread. Are you using the example of a professional at their pinnacle (decades ago) to generalise about photography now? Seriously I don't understand and frankly I don't care!

 

[alanphotography]

SD cards sucks. Fragile, slow. No one like them. Only eldritch abominations want them. We barely tolerate them in our cherished camera, as an unnecessary evil. We still resent they take the second memory slot.

But the CF are reliable enough than we can live with it and focus on more important stuff, like arguing on the interweb with other sentient fridges.

 

[Richard CN]

Thanks for the explanation and I agree... but I question the use of ML cameras for deep sky acquisition time. For "decent" shots, a quality EQ mount plus telescope and dedicated/cooled sensor with filters is the option which can put my underwater investment in the shade from a cost perspective.

Those cooling mods appear to be only for DLSRs (there was one older Sony) and nothing recently so if there was a need, then I guess 3rd parties would provide a solution.
The heat generation wasn't an obvious problem for 2 minute exposures which were really limited by the accuracy of the trackers more than noise issues. We had Sony/Nikon and Canon users on the workshop and there wasn't an issue for astro landscapes. No dark/bias frames were needed for instance and we were shooting for hours - limited only by the milky way setting... that said, we did also shoot the "winter" milky way later one night. I am yet to process it but it was mostly for the Ha modded cameras.

I am intrigued but the use of video using thousands of frames for stacking algorithms on deep sky subjects.... It would be interesting to see how modern ML bodies can assist there.

video stacking is what we used to do for planetary (using webcams), but i haven't see it lately.

a normal astro landscape at 14mm maxes out at somewhere around 30 second. that's enough time for thermals, especially if you are taking consecutive images. 15 consecutive images will build up the same (or nearly the same) amount of heat on the sensor as one 450 exposure. obviously there's heat dissipating all the time, etc but today's modern mirrorless sensors are far more complicated as well, with ADC's on die, etc.

but that doesn't mean that cooling will not help. it will help with any long exposure.

I think we don't see them anymore because good quality APS-C or larger dedicated imagers have come so far down in price that modding a camera seems to be an unnecessary aggravation. Altair, ZWo makes great cameras for astrophotography and the cameras and the I/O are optimized for the use case.

Altair Hypercam 26C APS-C Colour TEC Astronomy Camera 16bit

The new standard in astro imaging, Altair Hypercam 26C uses the latest 16bit Sony IMX571 sensor with ultra low read noise and super high quantum

www.altairastro.com

~$1300 (for less than a budget mirrorless + sensor mods not even including cooling mods)

I remember when I first started with astro photography, you couldn't find anything decent for under 5K as far as a dedicated imager. So modding cameras was the only option, and Canon was great because they actually worked for astro. their LENR simply did dark substraction, and their long exposures didn't do star eating.

So unless you are going on a REAL shoestring budget and using used circa 2000 8mp rebel, a cheap dob with suspect DIY autoguiding, most would use a 30kg tracking mount + auto guilder + astro imager and call life good.

That, though, is a fun rabbit hole. I have an article awaiting edits and approval on this actually.

 

[koenkooi]

SD cards sucks. Fragile, slow. No one like them. Only eldritch abominations want them. We barely tolerate them in our cherished camera, as an unnecessary evil. We still resent they take the second memory slot.[...]

I've made my peace with SD cards after switching to Sony Tough cards. Those don't file like they are going to snap or break when you look at them crossly

 

[EOS 4 Life]

PetaPixel released a video on the new sigma 1.8 zoom lens and showed redacted as the camera used to shoot it. While this could mean any camera, as Jared Polin's video on the same lens said filmed with RF lenses not R5 as it usually does, I would suspect they are using the R5II. It could be the R1 but I doubt they would have them testing it as it won't release for a few months. The footage in petapixel's video looked very nice too. It could also be a new sony or nikon (new Z6?)

Panasonic also has an announcement on June 5th.
Since that lens is on the L mount, I am guessing they used a new Panasonic camera.