Canon: No Plans for High Resolution R1

[neuroanatomist]

The smart controller is really game changing for me.

Same.

But you know, things like that, and a bigger better EV, better AF - it’s to be expected. The camera is 2k more expensive. But just because they’re (a bit) better, doesn’t suddenly mean the R5ii is much worse. The majority of posts I have come across have solely concentrated on the MP difference and the dual grip.

The R5II got he EVF from the R3, which I know from experience is excellent. So far the AF does seem improved, at least I've not yet had the R1 just fail to achieve focus in a situation where I know my 1D X could easily handle, which the R3 did on occasion.

 

[AlanF]

Actually I used the learners version as an underhand sleight. Clever hey. Incidentally, it’s the exact same definition Merriam - Websters.

But as you bring up Merriam- Websters definition, ok then!

Whilst you’re perhaps accurately telling me about multiple navies of the world and their alleged flagships, the definition we need is number 2 in the entry.

“the finest, largest, or most important one of a group of things (such as products, stores, etc.)”
—often used before another noun
-“the company's flagship store”
-“The traveling media crew comprises seven beat writers and a reporter from WFAN, the team's flagship station and the granddaddy of all-sports radio”

Canons camera line qualifies as a group of things. That they define their finest camera as their flagship is exactly the definition of a flagship product.

I don’t know what your point is.

My point was quite simply you were cherry picking dictionary definitions to suit your arguments. You would have made a stronger case by not doing so.

 

[mmmm]

My point was quite simply you were cherry picking dictionary definitions to suit your arguments. You would have made a stronger case by not doing so.

How am I cherry picking? There are two definitions. One describes ships (which is the original meaning of a flagship). The other describes products, which is what we’re actually talking about. Obviously there is only one relevant definition.

 

[neuroanatomist]

Obviously there is only one relevant definition.

Are you sure about that?

 

[EricN]

This thread is one of the most entertaining. I wish I more time to read it all.

 

[mmmm]

Are you sure about that?

View attachment 223169

Well I’ll be damned. I stand corrected.

 

[roby17269]

The smart controller is really game changing for me.

I only hear good things about it...

But you know, things like that, and a bigger better EV, better AF - it’s to be expected. The camera is 2k more expensive. But just because they’re (a bit) better, doesn’t suddenly mean the R5ii is much worse. The majority of posts I have come across have solely concentrated on the MP difference and the dual grip.

They are to be expected... so why can't we "expect" them in a simil-R1 with a higher res sensor? Differently from speed, those would not be impacted by resolution.

And I've never said that the R5 is a bad camera, on the contrary... but it is technically "worse" than this speculative camera... in the sense that it is not as good, relatively speaking. Of course it is all academic until Canon makes one. Which they may never do.
The mp difference is the central crux of the matter (for me at least), so obviously that's at the fore of these discussions

 

[MikeGalos]

The US Navy does not have a designated flagship for the entire Navy, but rather, each fleet commander has a flagship for their respective fleet. They can include aircraft carriers, amphibious assault ships, cruisers, destroyers, or other vessels depending on the specific command or mission.

Just as in the film days, Canon had a flagship for each line of cameras
F line flagship was the F-1 with other F cameras below it
A line flagship was the A-1 with other A cameras below it
EOS line flagship was the EOS-1 with other EOS cameras below it

Note that these overlapped so, for example, when the A-1 was released, the F-1 was still the flagship camera of the F line of cameras and, in fact, was the F line flagship from before the introduction of the A-1 until several years after the A-1 was discontinued and then for several years after the EOS-1 was the flagship of the EOS line.

 

[MikeGalos]

“the finest, largest, or most important one of a group of things (such as products, stores, etc.)”
—often used before another noun
-“the company's flagship store”
-“The traveling media crew comprises seven beat writers and a reporter from WFAN, the team's flagship station and the granddaddy of all-sports radio”

Canons camera line qualifies as a group of things. That they define their finest camera as their flagship is exactly the definition of a flagship product.

Or multiple groups of things each having its own flagship in the same way, for instance, that each naval fleet commander had a flagship and not just one flagship for all the country's navies.

For a more relevant example, Canon used to have a flagship for each camera line, F-1 for F line of cameras, A-1 for A line of cameras, EOS-1 for EOS line of cameras. Then, it split into two Flagships for the DSLRs with one flagship for the high-speed sports line and one for the high-resolution line. Then it dropped one flagship without re-merging the two lines with one flagship that was at the top of both lines.

 

[AlanF]

How am I cherry picking? There are two definitions. One describes ships (which is the original meaning of a flagship). The other describes products, which is what we’re actually talking about. Obviously there is only one relevant definition.

“Flagship” is a metaphor based on analogy, and its use is context dependent. Wikipedia gives examples where there is usually a single flagship (eg stores etc) and others where there are multiple (eg universities and electronic goods). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flagship
In some cases it follows the single naval flagship analogy, in others the multiple naval flagship.

 

[mmmm]

“Flagship” is a metaphor based on analogy, and its use is context dependent. Wikipedia gives examples where there is usually a single flagship (eg stores etc) and others where there are multiple (eg universities and electronic goods). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flagship
In some cases it follows the single naval flagship analogy, in others the multiple naval flagship.

The term flagship can be used as a metaphor, it also has distinct dictionary definitions. One is its traditional meaning which is about ships. Hence the name. The other is about products. Within the products definition (which is the relevant definition), it traditionally means the best in a line of products. That definition can be expanded or changed into a metaphor should you wish - but it’s the definition regardless. Canon choses to consider its entire camera lineup as a single product line. So it’s designated the R1 as the flagship camera. Do note that the R1 is NOT also their flagship printer. They also dont have a navy.

 

[AlanF]

The term flagship can be used as a metaphor, it also has distinct dictionary definitions. One is its traditional meaning which is about ships. Hence the name. The other is about products. Within the products definition (which is the relevant definition), it traditionally means the best in a line of products. That definition can be expanded or changed into a metaphor should you wish - but it’s the definition regardless. Canon choses to consider its entire camera lineup as a single product line. So it’s designated the R1 as the flagship camera. Do note that the R1 is NOT also their flagship printer. They also dont have a navy.

It's not my wish to change "flagship" into a metaphor - it is a metaphor when applied to anything other than a ship with a flag. Its use is far more nuanced than your learners of English dictionary definition. Let's ask ChatGPT.

You said:​

Can a company have more than one flagship?

ChatGPT said:​

Yes, a company can have more than one flagship, depending on the context. Here are a few ways this can happen:

1. Multiple Flagship Products – A company may have multiple flagship products in different categories. For example, Apple has both the iPhone and MacBook as flagship devices in their respective segments.
2. Regional Flagships – Some companies designate different flagship products or stores for various markets. For example, Samsung may have a flagship smartphone in North America that differs from its flagship model in other regions.
3. Flagship Stores – A company can operate multiple flagship stores in different locations. Nike, for instance, has flagship stores in New York, London, and Shanghai, each showcasing the brand in a high-profile way.
4. Different Divisions – If a company operates in multiple industries, it may have separate flagships for each business unit. Sony, for example, has flagship products in both gaming (PlayStation) and consumer electronics (Bravia TVs).

So yes, a company can definitely have more than one flagship depending on how they define it!

 

[neuroanatomist]

L

It's not my wish to change "flagship" into a metaphor - it is a metaphor when applied to anything other than a ship with a flag.
So yes, a company can definitely have more than one flagship depending on how they define it!

The flag goes on the ship carrying the admiral/fleet commander. Who determines which ship the admiral will be on? The Navy.

A company can have one or more flagships. Who determines which product(s), store(s), etc. is/are their flagship(s)? The company.

People can try to define or qualify the term as they want, question if it’s really true because other cameras have more MP or whatever other feature floats their personal dinghy, or wax nostalgic about the days when off-camera lighting meant touching a match to a trough full of incendiary powder but it’s all irrelevant. Canon has said the R1 is their flagship camera.

 

[mmmm]

It's not my wish to change "flagship" into a metaphor - it is a metaphor when applied to anything other than a ship with a flag. Its use is far more nuanced than your learners of English dictionary definition. Let's ask ChatGPT.

You said:​

Can a company have more than one flagship?

ChatGPT said:​

Yes, a company can have more than one flagship, depending on the context. Here are a few ways this can happen:

1. Multiple Flagship Products – A company may have multiple flagship products in different categories. For example, Apple has both the iPhone and MacBook as flagship devices in their respective segments.
2. Regional Flagships – Some companies designate different flagship products or stores for various markets. For example, Samsung may have a flagship smartphone in North America that differs from its flagship model in other regions.
3. Flagship Stores – A company can operate multiple flagship stores in different locations. Nike, for instance, has flagship stores in New York, London, and Shanghai, each showcasing the brand in a high-profile way.
4. Different Divisions – If a company operates in multiple industries, it may have separate flagships for each business unit. Sony, for example, has flagship products in both gaming (PlayStation) and consumer electronics (Bravia TVs).

So yes, a company can definitely have more than one flagship depending on how they define it!

The dictionary I quoted had the same definition as the dictionary you quoted. I explained why I specifically used that source, so let’s put that to bed shall we.

Chat GTP has just said exactly what I already said. Further it hasn’t suggested that companies generally have two flagships in one product line or category, except in special circumstances. Not that that matters, as I didn’t state that they couldn’t, just that they generally don’t. More specifically, Canon doesn’t in the instance we’re debating.

 

[AlanF]

L

The flag goes on the ship carrying the admiral/fleet commander. Who determines which ship the admiral will be on? The Navy.

A company can have one or more flagships. Who determines which product(s), store(s), etc. is/are their flagship(s)? The company.

People can try to define or qualify the term as they want, question if it’s really true because other cameras have more MP or whatever other feature floats their personal dinghy, or wax nostalgic about the days when off-camera lighting meant touching a match to a trough full of incendiary powder but it’s all irrelevant. Canon has said the R1 is their flagship camera.

I don't dispute that at all. My point was simply the use of cherry picked dictionary definitions. I thought I wrote this clearly enough:

My point was quite simply you were cherry picking dictionary definitions to suit your arguments. You would have made a stronger case by not doing so.

I simply do not like arguments, even if the thesis is correct, if they are based on cherry picking or analogies that are not appropriate, which we hear all day long from politicians. A good case can actually be weakened by it.

 

[mmmm]

I don't dispute that at all. My point was simply the use of cherry picked dictionary definitions. I thought I wrote this clearly enough:

I simply do not like arguments, even if the thesis is correct, if they are based on cherry picking or analogies that are not appropriate, which we hear all day long from politicians. A good case can actually be weakened by it.

Getting a bit bored by this ‘cherry picking’ accusation now. It’s very clearly defined, my argument fits perfectly well within the definition, as does canons stance. Going on about navies having multiple flagships and trying to fit that within a camera product line as to a reason canon must have more than one flagship camera is cherry picking. Saying one definition is true whilst another has been outgunned simply because the source dictionary is deemed ‘less’, even though the definitions are identical is cherry picking.

Quit winding me up. It’s pretty obvious what I’m getting at, and it’s pretty obvious what I’m saying is accurate.

 

[MikeGalos]

Going on about navies having multiple flagships and trying to fit that within a camera product line as to a reason canon must have more than one flagship camera is cherry picking.

Nobody has said that Canon must have more than one flagship. Several people have said, using both the navy analogy and Canon's own history, that Canon can have more than one flagship.

This has been a response to other people insisting that Canon cannot produce a high-resolution flagship model since there can only be one camera designated as a flagship which, by the evidence, is just factually incorrect.

 

[alFR]

 

[P-visie]

View attachment 223182

Did you take this with a flagship camera?

 

[neuroanatomist]

This has been a response to other people insisting that Canon cannot produce a high-resolution flagship model since there can only be one camera designated as a flagship which, by the evidence, is just factually incorrect.

Who is making that argument? Other than the straw man you're clearly setting up, I mean. I have not seen anyone claiming that Canon cannot choose to make a high-MP flagship model. What is being said is that they are not doing so now. The fact is they have not chosen to do so for the past several camera generations, and they recently stated that they have no plans to do so in the future (at least the near future).

However, some people keep insisting that the 24 MP R1 is somehow not a 'real' flagship, or not a 'true' flagship, or not a flagship 'as I want to define it in my own head', because it is not the highest MP camera that Canon offers. That is just factually incorrect.

Now, if people want to wish for Canon to release a high MP 1-series body in the future, they are welcome to do so. I mean, Canon did state:

We consider the flagship to basically be at the pinnacle of our lineup, which means we’re not going to have two flagship models because we’ve basically put everything that we have — the best performance and the best trust — into the EOS R1.

So, in a flagship, we would never focus on just one aspect of the performance that would destroy the balance. I believe our current strategy is to have the 5-series be responsible for the high-resolution quality.

...but people can go ahead and wish for one anyway. @AlanF knows what me ol' Irish Da would have said about that. Or they could stop wishing and just go buy a Sony a1II or Nikon Z9. But I guess whining is more fun.