Canon Announces the EOS 5D Mark IV DSLR

[pvalpha]

Looking at the specs its a nice camera. Just not the camera for my tastes. I have a 7D2 and that's serving me very well at the moment. I was hoping for more out of the 5D4 but I was actually expecting less. Truth is Canon is hyper-conservative. The camera had about as much chance of having C-log as it had of shooting 12fps.

Sensor performance will be the big thing, seeing what Canon's pulled off on the sensor end. The DPAF RAW looks like it might be a killer feature, although probably only for a few people. More importantly I'd wager they have the ADC's on sensor, which should improve DR performance a bit. It would be better if they had BSI, they'd gain a few square nanometers of space per pixel, and that could have really helped push the 30.4mpx sensor with less dependency on improving digic processing for DR and low light.

Other than that, though, there is no burning reason to swap cameras. Maybe in about 1-2 years I might pick up one when Canon has a sale. I'm expecting the 7D3 sometime in 2020-2022, if Canon keeps to form, although I'd still love to see one in 2018 (or preferably next year)

The one lens I'm hoping for is a 24-70 f2.8L IS. As useless as that would be to everyone else, probably.

 

[Jack Douglas]

...
Why should I buy this camera rather than twice cheaper D750? Can anyone explain?

Because it has the word "Canon" on it.

Why should we ignore this post? Because it has the name "Dilbert" on it.

Even Neuro hasn't figured out how to clean the D virus.

Jack

 

[rfdesigner]

The Sale of Goods Act dictates that there must be a "reasonable" life on goods sold. It doesnt define reasonable nor states how it should be worked out.

The Law of Limitations, in England, Wales and NI, is 6 years (its 5 years in Scotland) and so whilst you may reasonably expect that some things may last longer than 6 years you are statute barred from taking action against the retailor for selling you defective goods after that. Hence the often slightly inaccurate statement that the SoGA gives you up to 6 years cover.

There is no legal requirements for goods to be designed to last a minimum of 6 years (nor that they can design inferior products for Scotland with its 5 year limit). It must simply be reasonable and it is reasonable that some items will last less than that (eg budget or bleeding edge items). How reasonable is depends on a host of factors, marketing materials, level of technology etc.

If a new consumer camera clearly stated the shutter lasted 100,000 actuations and yours dies after 3 years and 150,000 actuations then its unlikely you will win any case despite it only be 3 years old.

The other challenge is that after 6 months the onus of proof moves from the retailer to the consumer. Your camera fails after 5 years, you are the one that has to prove that there was an intrinsic fault when the item was sold to you/ that a reasonable life is greater than this rather than the retailer disprove it unlike under the 2 year guarantee of EU law where the onus is always on the retailer to show it was user negligence.

As to Article 50, the SoGA is from 1979, the EU Directive that was passed to enforce a 2 year guarantee was passed in 2011 and was not implemented in the UK because of the fact the SoGA was considered to already give greater protection. Given SoGA is a home gown act why do you think it would change?

As to the 5D Mk4 - agree the upgrades arent as good as they could have been but then I am coming from a 40D and so will be a big enough jump for me but will wait for prices to call and/or a trip to the USA before I take the plunge.

SoGA has been superceded.. but doesn't change much on this argument.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-34410782

 

[Jack Douglas]

You have to decide whether "Left-side" bokeh is better than "Right-side" ? That's politics. Bokeh is an abstract anyway.

What if "Top-side" or "Bottom-side" bokeh would be better?

That's what rotating the camera 90° is for.

Well, sure...I mean, the directionality of a tiny amount of 'bokeh shift' should always trump one of the biggest factors affecting image composition.

Please leave Trump out of this. It's bad enough he has recruited Farage to his campaign, Did you know that trump in North of England means fart?

Today I learnt something! (southern England.. NOT planet london)

And we thought AlanF had no sense of humor, that was a good one.

Jack

 

[scyrene]

I don't really get why so many here does not think it is legit to complain, when Canon deliberately cripples its products?

It is the concept that every product must including every feature a company can possibly make that isnt legitimate. No company does this and in most cases consumers are happy about this. If VW group had to include the engine from the Bugatti Veyron in every car it makes the VW Up would certainly not cost close to the £9,000 it currently does and would be at least 50 times that. Most people dont want to be paying £0.5m for their next city car.

Companies make products to a price, they consider their other products to ensure they dont canibalise sales, they consider their competitors products/prices (that doesnt mean match), they consider the future path of the product (Canon didnt start working on the 5D Mk4 last month!).

Sometimes you are lucky and something is the ideal sweet spot for you, if absolutely everyone is in that boat then the product designers probably arent doing their jobs too well as they should be trying to get you to look up a model, buying multiple items etc

This is all before we get into topics like planned obscellence etc

durable goods must be designed such that they could resonably be expected to last 6 years (my wording), it's not a warranty. You'd have to have some kind of proof that the goods were not built properly.

So if Canon put a shutter in only capable of lasting 3 years of normal use then the argument would be whether camera bodies are durable or disposable.

Thankfully we now (as of this year) have "class action" available to us.

EU rules state 2 year warranty, no idea how that will change after article 50 is invoked.

The Sale of Goods Act dictates that there must be a "reasonable" life on goods sold. It doesnt define reasonable nor states how it should be worked out.

The Law of Limitations, in England, Wales and NI, is 6 years (its 5 years in Scotland) and so whilst you may reasonably expect that some things may last longer than 6 years you are statute barred from taking action against the retailor for selling you defective goods after that. Hence the often slightly inaccurate statement that the SoGA gives you up to 6 years cover.

There is no legal requirements for goods to be designed to last a minimum of 6 years (nor that they can design inferior products for Scotland with its 5 year limit). It must simply be reasonable and it is reasonable that some items will last less than that (eg budget or bleeding edge items). How reasonable is depends on a host of factors, marketing materials, level of technology etc.

If a new consumer camera clearly stated the shutter lasted 100,000 actuations and yours dies after 3 years and 150,000 actuations then its unlikely you will win any case despite it only be 3 years old.

The other challenge is that after 6 months the onus of proof moves from the retailer to the consumer. Your camera fails after 5 years, you are the one that has to prove that there was an intrinsic fault when the item was sold to you/ that a reasonable life is greater than this rather than the retailer disprove it unlike under the 2 year guarantee of EU law where the onus is always on the retailer to show it was user negligence.

As to Article 50, the SoGA is from 1979, the EU Directive that was passed to enforce a 2 year guarantee was passed in 2011 and was not implemented in the UK because of the fact the SoGA was considered to already give greater protection. Given SoGA is a home gown act why do you think it would change?

As to the 5D Mk4 - agree the upgrades arent as good as they could have been but then I am coming from a 40D and so will be a big enough jump for me but will wait for prices to call and/or a trip to the USA before I take the plunge.

A refreshingly detailed and (from what I can tell!) balanced post from a new forum member. Welcome!

 

[scyrene]

Body only: $3,499
Body + 24-105 kit: $4599
24-105: $1,099

Why buy the kit? If my maths is right, it saves no money than buying separately (and actually costs a dollar more).

That's just a ridiculous price policy : : :

Even more ridiculous:
4.065,- € @ Calumet in Germany, body only.
If that's the MRSP and not a first adopter premium we'll have a 27 % price rise over the Mark III (MRSP 3.199,-).
But I don't see any 27 % rise in functionality (don't come with 36 % more MP : ).

So if I'll spend my money in Canon products in the near future it'll be for lenses, if any.

Ever heard of inflation? Ever heard of currency fluctuation? It's not as simple as the price of the older model versus the newer one reflecting improvements in the product. Imagine saying 'I pay 50% more for spaghetti now compared to ten years ago, but it's not 50% more nutritious or delicious!' : Anyway RRP/release price is always higher than most people want. Be patient.

 

[scyrene]

It looks like a nice evolutionary upgrade to me. I don't fully understand all the new features. But once some of you have received yours. I'm sure I'll read all about it.

I clicked trough the product page on usa.canon.com and noticed the "whats in the box" page list a "Cable Protector" is that the weird plastic thing in the picture?

Why would I want that? is that a studio gizmo?

My 5Ds came with one. You can screw it onto where the USB cable plugs into the camera, I guess to prevent damage or accidentally detaching it - a bit like old fashioned monitor leads, that had a screw on either side... and didn't printer cables used to have that too? Anyway, it comes off the lead if you don't want to use it.

 

[scyrene]

Now tell me about the goddamn DR please. Can we compete with Nikon yet or what?

Depends what you mean by 'compete'. The older Canon sensors could compete fine in the sense they produced excellent images under most circumstances, when used correctly. They couldn't compete in shadow lifting. The newer ones are a bit better at shadow lifting, if that's your thing.

 

[scyrene]

You have to decide whether "Left-side" bokeh is better than "Right-side" ? That's politics. Bokeh is an abstract anyway.

What if "Top-side" or "Bottom-side" bokeh would be better?

That's what rotating the camera 90° is for.

Well, sure...I mean, the directionality of a tiny amount of 'bokeh shift' should always trump one of the biggest factors affecting image composition.

Please leave Trump out of this. It's bad enough he has recruited Farage to his campaign, Did you know that trump in North of England means fart?

Do they play bridge in the North of England? If so, it must be very impolite...

It gives a whole new meaning to a game of Top Trumps, I can tell you.

 

[scyrene]

Oh and as it's not been mentioned here as far as I can tell - perhaps the somewhat higher price than many seem to have hoped for is an indication, as has been suggested around here in the past few months, that the 6D is moving upmarket with its next iteration? They're making space for it to move into. And then a really budget FF option? (I've no idea about this last bit).

 

[scyrene]

Am I the only person who likes a video crop? I mean, it would be good to have the option of both of course. But 4k 1.74x crop (or whatever it is) would be great for fairly distant wildlife, especially in low light - less need to attach a teleconverter.

Incidentally, I don't care about RRPs. I've never paid RRP for a camera. Just wait a little. You don't have to get one right now. Just treat this as a pre-announcement, imagine the release is in six months' time, and you're fine.

 

[neuroanatomist]

Just wait a little. You don't have to get one right now. Just treat this as a pre-announcement, imagine the release is in six months' time, and you're fine.

But it's new and I wants it, Precious. I wants it to be mine, my own, my Precious.

 

[E]

Are you people feeling well? :-\

You're not reading what I'm posting, and you are really rude.

I am reading what you are writing.
Canon has not put high-end video functionality in the 5D4
I call it manufacturing to a price point
You see it as them deliberately crippling the product
My comment was highlighting that every manufacturer compromises to meet marketing aims. You don't like those compromises so you can either go with it or buy something else.

Simple fact is they are NOT going to make the 5D4 a high end video option. If you want high end video option buy a high end video camera.
If you were saying 'I would like to have seen...' then that is understandable. Complaining that they have deliberately crippled a product is refusing to accept reality of what they have chosen to produce.


How much would you have been willing to pay for a 5D4 with the video you would like to see?

But you are just proving to me again that you're not reading what I'm posting.

I have NOT asked for high-end video functionality in the 5D4.

And I have also written time and time again that I don't want to buy a video camera. But that I'm OK with paying for a non-crippled 1D C Mark II, if there were one.

So how come this is impossible for you to take in? I'm accused of writing the same thing over and over, but that's obviously because you're not reading and understanding it. My demands on Canon are fully reasonable.

 

[E]

I don't really get why so many here does not think it is legit to complain, when Canon deliberately cripples its products?

It is the concept that every product must including every feature a company can possibly make that isnt legitimate. No company does this and in most cases consumers are happy about this. If VW group had to include the engine from the Bugatti Veyron in every car it makes the VW Up would certainly not cost close to the £9,000 it currently does and would be at least 50 times that. Most people dont want to be paying £0.5m for their next city car.

Companies make products to a price, they consider their other products to ensure they dont canibalise sales, they consider their competitors products/prices (that doesnt mean match), they consider the future path of the product (Canon didnt start working on the 5D Mk4 last month!).

Sometimes you are lucky and something is the ideal sweet spot for you, if absolutely everyone is in that boat then the product designers probably arent doing their jobs too well as they should be trying to get you to look up a model, buying multiple items etc

This is all before we get into topics like planned obscellence etc

So you just registered a new user, to show me that you haven't read anything I have posted either?

 

[scyrene]

Are you people feeling well? :-\

You're not reading what I'm posting, and you are really rude.

I am reading what you are writing.
Canon has not put high-end video functionality in the 5D4
I call it manufacturing to a price point
You see it as them deliberately crippling the product
My comment was highlighting that every manufacturer compromises to meet marketing aims. You don't like those compromises so you can either go with it or buy something else.

Simple fact is they are NOT going to make the 5D4 a high end video option. If you want high end video option buy a high end video camera.
If you were saying 'I would like to have seen...' then that is understandable. Complaining that they have deliberately crippled a product is refusing to accept reality of what they have chosen to produce.


How much would you have been willing to pay for a 5D4 with the video you would like to see?

But you are just proving to me again that you're not reading what I'm posting.

I have NOT asked for high-end video functionality in the 5D4.

And I have also written time and time again that I don't want to buy a video camera. But that I'm OK with paying for a non-crippled 1D C Mark II, if there were one.

So how come this is impossible for you to take in? I'm accused of writing the same thing over and over, but that's obviously because you're not reading and understanding it. My demands on Canon are fully reasonable.

Let's put this as clearly as possible: YOU have asked for certain features. OTHERS have asked for other features. If Canon put in all the features YOU AND OTHERS asked for, then it would be closer to a professional video camera. Unless you believe your personal desires are either more natural or somehow more important to Canon, then there's no way for the company to decide between your wishes and those of others. Does this make sense? Nobody is saying YOU want a pro video model. But one person's wishes cannot define a market. Capiche?

 

[Deleted member 7828]

Official explanation of the Dual Pixel Raw technology.

http://www.learn.usa.canon.com/resources/articles/2016/eos-5d-markiv/eos5d-markiv-dual-pixel-raw.shtml


Key points, some may be surprising to a few folks:

- DPP is needed (at least initially) for the DPR adjustment, and Canon (in typical corporate speak) makes no promises about 3rd party compatibility, says it is up to other companies to reverse-engineer the procedures to be able to add it in.

- The DPR editing functions are in a separate window (not baked into the main editing interface, for those familiar with DPP)

- you can only make 1(!) of the 3 adjustments per image, for "technical reasons"

- Frame rate and buffer capacity take a hit (expected), and file size increases to 65MB

- For Bokeh Shift, it works left-right in horizontal images and up/down in vertical ones

- Image micro-adjustment isn't going to save an OOF shot, but may enhance/save images that are just that TINY bit off (eyelash in focus instead of pupil)

- Image micro-adjustment will work best on images shot close-up and/or wide-open, at narrow apertures

- Noise may be more visible in the image is a result, they caution

Hmm, has potential, but I think it will be a niche function for most folks.

 

[neuroanatomist]

Are you people feeling well? :-\

You're not reading what I'm posting, and you are really rude.

I am reading what you are writing.
Canon has not put high-end video functionality in the 5D4
I call it manufacturing to a price point
You see it as them deliberately crippling the product
My comment was highlighting that every manufacturer compromises to meet marketing aims. You don't like those compromises so you can either go with it or buy something else.

Simple fact is they are NOT going to make the 5D4 a high end video option. If you want high end video option buy a high end video camera.
If you were saying 'I would like to have seen...' then that is understandable. Complaining that they have deliberately crippled a product is refusing to accept reality of what they have chosen to produce.


How much would you have been willing to pay for a 5D4 with the video you would like to see?

But you are just proving to me again that you're not reading what I'm posting.

I have NOT asked for high-end video functionality in the 5D4.

And I have also written time and time again that I don't want to buy a video camera. But that I'm OK with paying for a non-crippled 1D C Mark II, if there were one.

So how come this is impossible for you to take in? I'm accused of writing the same thing over and over, but that's obviously because you're not reading and understanding it. My demands on Canon are fully reasonable.

Let's put this as clearly as possible: YOU have asked for certain features. OTHERS have asked for other features. If Canon put in all the features YOU AND OTHERS asked for, then it would be closer to a professional video camera. Unless you believe your personal desires are either more natural or somehow more important to Canon, then there's no way for the company to decide between your wishes and those of others. Does this make sense? Nobody is saying YOU want a pro video model. But one person's wishes cannot define a market. Capiche?

Let's put this as clearly as possible. If you actually read what 'E' wrote, you'd see that's exactly what he's saying. I want it so everyone wants it. It's not a high end feature. It's important to me so it's important to everyone. It's so easy to do. So logical. Canon should have done it, because I wanted them to. Or else. Or else what? Exactly.

Capiche?

 

[Jack Douglas]

A refreshingly detailed and (from what I can tell!) balanced post from a new forum member. Welcome!
[/quote]

You got that right!

Jack

 

[E]

Are you people feeling well? :-\

You're not reading what I'm posting, and you are really rude.

I am reading what you are writing.
Canon has not put high-end video functionality in the 5D4
I call it manufacturing to a price point
You see it as them deliberately crippling the product
My comment was highlighting that every manufacturer compromises to meet marketing aims. You don't like those compromises so you can either go with it or buy something else.

Simple fact is they are NOT going to make the 5D4 a high end video option. If you want high end video option buy a high end video camera.
If you were saying 'I would like to have seen...' then that is understandable. Complaining that they have deliberately crippled a product is refusing to accept reality of what they have chosen to produce.


How much would you have been willing to pay for a 5D4 with the video you would like to see?

But you are just proving to me again that you're not reading what I'm posting.

I have NOT asked for high-end video functionality in the 5D4.

And I have also written time and time again that I don't want to buy a video camera. But that I'm OK with paying for a non-crippled 1D C Mark II, if there were one.

So how come this is impossible for you to take in? I'm accused of writing the same thing over and over, but that's obviously because you're not reading and understanding it. My demands on Canon are fully reasonable.

Let's put this as clearly as possible: YOU have asked for certain features. OTHERS have asked for other features. If Canon put in all the features YOU AND OTHERS asked for, then it would be closer to a professional video camera. Unless you believe your personal desires are either more natural or somehow more important to Canon, then there's no way for the company to decide between your wishes and those of others. Does this make sense? Nobody is saying YOU want a pro video model. But one person's wishes cannot define a market. Capiche?

I have asked for a non-crippled camera, with the quality Canon delivered already in 2012, paired with slow motion. That is not a very unique request, that I don't share with anybody else.

I was dissappointed with 5D Mark IV, but I was ready to get a more expensive model instead. But, as Canon cripples their cameras, that model does not exist.

And no, there are plenty of users here who keep repeating that I should get a video camera. There is even one in the quoted post that I answered. If you care to read it.

 

[testthewest]

Body only: $3,499
Body + 24-105 kit: $4599
24-105: $1,099

Why buy the kit? If my maths is right, it saves no money than buying separately (and actually costs a dollar more).

That's just a ridiculous price policy : : :

Even more ridiculous:
4.065,- € @ Calumet in Germany, body only.
If that's the MRSP and not a first adopter premium we'll have a 27 % price rise over the Mark III (MRSP 3.199,-).
But I don't see any 27 % rise in functionality (don't come with 36 % more MP : ).

So if I'll spend my money in Canon products in the near future it'll be for lenses, if any.

Ever heard of inflation? Ever heard of currency fluctuation? It's not as simple as the price of the older model versus the newer one reflecting improvements in the product. Imagine saying 'I pay 50% more for spaghetti now compared to ten years ago, but it's not 50% more nutritious or delicious!' : Anyway RRP/release price is always higher than most people want. Be patient.

You are right: Things are not so easy. Inflation is a record lows, the euro is more expensive in yen then before and some even say technology advances and make the same produce cheaper every year. A gain in productivity. The computer buissness doubled their processor performance every 2 year for a long time, with prices staying the same.
On the other hand: A company should charge whatever it can get away with. This sum is in a way dependant on the money people have to spend. German consumers certainly haven't had an increase in spending power by the margin Canon upped the price.

Complains and sales figures is the best way to show Canon that this is too much. So it is perfectly reasonable to complain. On the other hand, finding apologies for a multinational companies hiking up price makes no sense. Do you own Canon shares, or why do you defend the pricing?
Complaining gets the price down faster than waiting silently.